Winner of 6th Fernando Rielo International Prize for Musica Sacra
  • I made it all the way through! The camera cut to the Crucifix at 2:45 was...significant.

    I'm not prepared to say this was a BAD piece of music. I heard interesting structures. But it was so butt-ugly as to demand an act of reparation. It certainly isn't liturgical music, or even sacred music.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I made it all the way through!


    Liar.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Glad I didn't waste my time with an entry. The judges are not interested in sacred music.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    I made it 1:05

    That's some seriously ugly music.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    It's nice when they use all the notes.
  • That's a very orange stage. I wouldn't have though to paint it that color.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I left that world at the Peabody Conservatory in 1981 and never looked back. They were throwing ping pong balls into the piano during composition master class. I got up and said "I'm afraid I haven't learned to compose music on the staff as of yet (they were using graph paper) so I will take a leave of you".
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Glad I didn't waste my time with an entry. The judges are not interested in sacred music.


    I did, which is why I was looking this up to begin with. Posted this as a warning in case others consider entry in the future. A waste of international postage.

    The positive side is that at least I wrote a nice piece of music. Impractical for liturgy with their length requirements, and unlikely that all the instruments it was scored for would be readily available ... but a reduction some day might be nice.

    They said they could pick "up to" 4 finalists.
    They picked 3.
    All from Spain.

    One of the others is on Youtube and is not as irrelevant (culturally, liturgically, historically, take your pick) as the contest winner. No idea about the other. Maybe they posted the (shorter) clip of the contrasting piece just to frustrate complaints about the winner. Maybe they are just too "open minded" for us to comprehend. Who knows...

    It seems like a way for a tight-knit group of fellows to dip into some funds. Good for them. Next time this thing rolls around, I hope someone links to this thread and saves some people some time/money.

    I'm no worse for the experience of having written the piece I submitted - but I sure wish I could have the $120 in postage back. I never would have wasted that money if I knew this was their idea of "musica sacra."
  • Beautiful! As a soundtrack to Dante's inferno.
    Thanked by 1sergeantedward
  • So...now that everyone is done warming up, when does the music start?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    That music is too ugly even for Hell. And the choir sounded not so good in some of the sections (or were they supposed to be so woefully out of tune). I did listen to the whole shebang and was immensely underwhelmed.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 353
    True liturgical music in the best Catholic tradition. Beautiful, dignified, devout, prayerful, both contemporary and very traditional - a very lovely piece. Has even something Byzantine in it.

    /trollolo
  • Drake
    Posts: 219
    My condolences, ryand. It's a disappointment at the very least when ugliness is preferred to beauty. And when that ugliness is elevated as "sacred", it is a continuation of the tradition of preferring Barabbas to Christ.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    My condolences, ryand.


    Appreciated, but not necessary. This thread was a PSA.
  • I'm not even sure the intent was 12tET. But I'm sure not going to listen again to figure it out.
    Ryan's experience reminds me of my entry for The Francesco Siciliani contest. The winners there weren't horrible like this, but they were all Italians. I paid money up the wazoo (warning: don't do bank drafts from a small town bank). Meanwhile, if anyone has a use for a 7' Pater Noster for professional choir and organ, let me know.
    Thanked by 1MichaelDickson
  • Well, it is a common phenomenon in music schools -- I saw plenty of it when I was in music school. Students learn just enough to write something that has some structure, maybe even a clever idea, maybe even a good idea somewhere. But they get so wrapped up in the act of composition, thinking about the theory that they've learned, that they forget to think about how it sounds, and if they did, they might not have the aesthetic sensibility to hear it anyway.

    Alas, some of these people graduate, and then have students of their own, or judge contests, and so the cycle of overly-academic ugliness feeds itself. (I say this as an academic.)

    I agree with Jeffrey that there might be something like 19tET going on. Like him, I'm not going to listen again...
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    It's the Marian antiphon to conclude Second Vespers of the Apocalypse.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    That is a hideous piece of music.

    Marilyn vos Savant made a comment some years ago about princes entering music schools and frogs emerging from them.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Apocalypse... yea, we are definitely in the middle of that! So in that regard, it is most fitting... however, I think Stravisnky's Rite of Spring is much better musically... even if it does conjure up demonic forces. Poor Igor. A magnificent talent and a lost soul. (hope he made it to the gates!)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    With new music, I will listen to anything 10 times before giving an opinion. However, I have found that I almost never change my mind from my initial impressions.

    It does have interesting moments (that last about 3 or 4 seconds).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Dallipiccola Lives!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    Not quite in the same class. Luigi Dallapiccola's (February 3, 1904 – February 19, 1975) Canti di prigionia setting prayers of Mary Stuart, Boethius and Savanarola is worth getting to know though.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Same genre and confusion as far as I can tell Richard. How do you describe the difference?
  • I finished and enjoyed it. Reminded me of a prayer being uttered while Penderecki bombed Hiroshima.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • I'm not a huge fan of Dallapiccola, but I would say that the difference between Dallapiccola and the garbage in the original post is significant. The 'music' of the original post was (a) all about itself and its (perceived) theoretical cleverness, with no real attempt to make itself valuable to the listener; (b) as somebody said, 'butt-ugly' from start to finish -- I recall nary a moment of beauty in the entire debacle; (c) more or less aimless -- there were some vague attempts at a detectable structure, but not much more than that. In short, the piece was about itself and its composer, with no attempt to be comprehensible to others, much less beautiful.

    On the contrary, I find this piece

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AsaCNqfRAE

    for example, sort of enjoyable and interesting, and in any case, whether one finds it to one's liking or not, it seems clear to me that the piece does not commit the musical sins (a)-(c) above. The piece tries to draw in the listener rather than putting itself on display. There are quite a few striking moments of sonic power, both harmonious and discordant (but discordant in an interesting and purposeful way, and it finds some resolution, not like throwing ping pong balls into a piano until the graph paper is full). It has a clear and meaningful structure.

    I either hadn't heard or do not recall hearing the Canti di Prigionia that Richard Mix posted, but I listened to it just now. I also found it to be worth a listen. No doubt it is not to everybody's taste, but it is not just plain ugly, as the 'winner' in question here is.

    I'm not claiming that any of this stuff is suitable for use in a sacred context. I'm inclined to think not, but I do worry that my view is born of some sort of unjustified prejudice on my part. All music was 'new' at some point. (Still, I'm very happy just to continue singing chant at mass and leave Dallapiccola to my late Tuesday night listening...)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    I finished and enjoyed it. Reminded me of a prayer being uttered while Penderecki bombed Hiroshima.

    There's no comparison at all, as Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima is visceral, serious, deeply engaging music and sounds that actually convey feelings and drama.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    Dallapiccola is one of the midcentury greats, not commensurable with a student effort. Mariné's piece is not too well thought out and we (I think I'm safe here) can't say how he could have gotten the opening idea from the text. I wouldn't go so far as to say there no beauties, though; the interlude at 1:10 (just after Irishtenor gave up) is a nice relief from the intonation difficulties, and for the third minute one feels that things are finally getting under way. The ending is pretty, but without a sense of payoff.

    Ten times???
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Richard

    Yes, the ten times rule was one of my composition teacher's pleading reasons to give something a chance.

    MichaelDickenson

    Now that piece to me has merit. I could almost hear that as an organ piece useful for say, last Sunday?

    I am going to listen to the other one again.

    UPDATE

    Ok... This time I heard very distant shades of Wagner and Debussy, however, it seems to me this music is largely experimental and is composed almost for its own sake. Or, it seems to drive one into a very lonely place within oneself. I think something is said in the music, but it could be said in a much shorter length of time. At numerous times I get the sense that it comes very close to the cliff of utter failure. Music should not hang out in those places.

    I went and looked up his history and it was revealing why he embraced organized chaos.


    Dallapiccola's early experiences under the fascist regime of Benito Mussolini, who governed Italy from October 1922 to July 1943, colored his outlook and output for the rest of his life.
    Of course this is not fact as much as opinion, but it certainly pervades his music... Great darkness. I have never heard this "voice" before. Thank you Richard.

    He appears to truly be a lost soul with a musical voice.

    In general, it is very interesting to see the darkness of the world during those difficult times in history and how it's music and art reflected that confusion.

    Heaven was warning us of chastisement and war. Demonic forces were being unleashed in unprecedented ways.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    That Penderecki piece leaves one speechless.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Dallapiccola is to Puccini as Berg is to Mahler. What's the big deal about him?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Puccini


    Ah! The Wagner of music.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick