Ecumenia : the disease of VII? (A chapter by Michael Davies)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Here is one of the more poignant excerpts that addresses "bubble popping" from the thread on BCM.

    "An assertion by the Archdeacon which no reasonable person could deny is that the movement given such impetus by Vatican II "in its general trend is irreversible." 30 The most dramatic manifestation for the ordinary Catholic is one which has already been mentioned in this chapter, the Protestantization of our Liturgy. This, too, has won high praise from Archdeacon Pawley who notes that it has, in many places, "outstripped the Liturgy of Cranmer, in spite of the latter's 400 years start, in its modernity." 31 It is above all this new liturgy which he considers to have "changed relationships out of all recognition. For the revised Roman Liturgy, so far from being a cause of dissension, now resembles the Anglican Liturgy very closely. It has also demonstrated the value, under certain circumstances, of an authoritarian government. For instead of the pains and agonies of experiments, objections, counter-objections, and a multitude of parallel revisions existing at the same time, the new Roman liturgy came into existence simultaneously all over. the world." 32 Similar sentiments have been expressed by spokesmen for a number of Protestant denominations, some far more evangelical in character than the Church of England. A detailed examination of the Protestant attitude to the new Mass, and its implications, must be left for the next book. Archdeacon Pawley's remarks not only highlight the present abject state of the One, Holy, Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church but also provide an invaluable insight into the Anglican mentality. The Archdeacon is a typical Anglican minister, very sincere, full of good will, but quite capable of looking upon the Roman Mass as "a ca use of dissension." When looked upon in their historical perspective his remarks are quite grotesque. In the sixteenth century those exercising effective control over the Church in England broke away from the Catholic Church, with which the English Church had always been in communion, and established the Church of England-----an heretical and schismatic sect. They devised a new Communion Service to give liturgical expression to their heretical doctrines, and, as Fr. Fortescue explains, "broke away utterly from all historical liturgical evolution." 33 St. Pius V, in opposition to the heretical liturgies which had been devised wherever Protestants gained political power, codified the existing Roman rite, which dated back in all essentials to the time of St. Gregory the Great, and extended its use throughout the Latin Church. It has been celebrated throughout the length and breadth of the entire world, wherever priests of the Roman rite have taken the Gospel. Yet to Archdeacon Pawley it is "a cause of dissension"-and a cause of dissension because it does not conform with the
    heresies of the Thirty-nine Articles! The spectacle of an Anglican minister reprimanding the universal Church for not bringing her liturgy into line with that of his sect could once have aroused no reaction but tolerant laughter among Catholics but now they must weep, for those governing the Church today have gone a long way to removing this particular "cause of dissension," this obstacle to ecumenism, and have gone as far as they dare in bringing the Catholic liturgy into line with his, and received a pat on the back from the Archdeacon for doing so!
    As is so often the case, Archbishop Lefebvre has assessed the situation perfectly: "All these changes have but one justification, an aberrant senseless ecumenism that will not attract a single Protestant to the Faith but will cause countless Catholics to lose it, and will instill total confusion in the minds of many more who will no longer know what is true and what is false." 34


  • False "ecumenism" has brought many evils to us since V2.
  • Try this test:

    when you talk to former Catholics, how many of them cite the altered liturgy as why they ceased practicing their faith. When you get blank stares, ask about other related things: meatless Fridays abolished, the ban on birth control both retained (officially) and abolished (practically and locally); return to the lit.urgy now: the reason people leave is confusion about what is true.

    Now, ask converts to the faith: was it the beauty of the reformed liturgy, art, music and architecture which drew you to the faith?
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Nail on the head, CGZ. Exactly.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    CGZ wrote:
    ask converts to the faith: was it the beauty of the reformed liturgy, art, music and architecture which drew you to the faith?


    Since you asked:

    I'm a convert from Evangelicalism, and the first Mass I ever attended in my life was at St. Paul's Church in Cambridge, MA. The Mass was fully sung, in English, and despite the limitations of the modern Mass, the meaning of the liturgy was clear -- that the Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary, re-presented on the altar. In addition, the beautiful music of both the boy choir and the singing congregation expressed reverence and devotion. The experience made a great impression on me, and impelled me to look seriously into the Church's teaching.

    Spare me any facile generalizations. The lack of beauty in most celebrations of Mass is not due to the text.
  • Amen to Chonak's point.
    I might quite more than tenuously suggest that if not for the revised liturgy and ancillary teachings of Vatican II, the Church would be bleeding more souls than it already is.
    Too, some of the above writers are amongst those who snottily refer to Anglican priests as ministers (some of whom have quite impeccable lineages, whilst others do not), and never lose a paranoid and uncharitable opportunity to overlook all the Catholic good which never got leached from the Anglican church, focusing only on those rabid protestantising sorts who did all they could to wreck any chances of a reconciliation betwixt Canterbury and Rome; they who finally shot off their last foot in the fraudulent developments of the last few decades.
    These people do not represent Anglicanism at its best and most hopeful, any more than those Catholics who are embarrassed to be truly Catholic are representative of the Catholic Church at its best.

    The next time you wish to excoriate Anglicans, take a good look at the True Faith found much more alive in the Roman Catholic Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter than it is in more purely Roman rite Catholic quarters than one could shake a stick at.

    What is called 'the Anglican Church' today is not the finest that it has been historically, but has deliberately dashed any promise of a return home which at one time seemed a possibility. It is what happens when feminists and embarrassed Christians take over a church... and, given the chance, they will do the same to the Catholic Church. Look within! This is a social and intellectual phenomenon which cannot be dismissed as 'protestantising'. It is a sickness in every church, every university, every nation and culture, every profession, every stratum of society. You cannot dismiss this as a Protestant movement. It is an historical development which infects all. Look within!

    An Afterthought -
    It is interesting that only yesterday I acquired a beautiful and leather-bound 1872 publication, A Glossary of Ecclesiastical Terms, by the Rev Orby Shipley. I had never heard of Fr Shipley, but was intrigued. Upon examination this exhaustive and impeccably Catholic 'glossary' in 500 pages of very small print was a joy to read. Every test I gave it received an unmistakable Catholic pass. Not only did Fr Shipley give all the 'right answers' to Roman matters, he gave the definitive 'right answers' to Anglo-Catholic ones. I looked him up when I got home and discovered that he was, indeed, a disciple of Newman's, a man noted for his scholarship and piety. About five years after publication of this more-than-a-glossary he was received into the Roman Church by Cardinal Manning. Such was and is the 'faith journey' of many Anglo-Catholics. Many more like them are not so moved to cross the Tiber, but they are there (in dwindling numbers) even today, practicing and evangelising the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Faith in such manner that would put to shame the witness of many Roman Catholics. They might just make you think 'Catholic'. Stop despising them! Most Catholics have very little to be snotty about.

    (Oh, and I also got a fine facsimile edition in a slip case of The Book of Kells for 50% off! It was a good week-end!)
    Thanked by 3dboothe chonak CHGiffen
  • For the record:

    Please re-holster or re-sheathe your weapons. I'm a convert to the faith myself.

    I didn't mention any particular brand of Protestantism, and yes, I meant it as a question: Does the manifest beauty of the new art, architecture, music and language attract converts, or do they become Catholic in spite of the current state of things?

    As to why people leave, I may not have the only explanation, but it is certainly one of the major causes in our day.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    "when you talk to former Catholics, how many of them cite the altered liturgy as why they ceased practicing their faith. When you get blank stares, ask about other related things: meatless Fridays abolished, the ban on birth control both retained (officially) and abolished (practically and locally); return to the lit.urgy now: the reason people leave is confusion about what is true."

    Well, back in the late 60s and 70s, at least in the USA, Humanae Vitae was much more the issue for lapsing than the changes in liturgy. HV was preceded by what might be called a revolution of rising expectations due to common confessional practices. As a secondary matter, the sudden shift in preceptual obligations revealed the brittleness of the Second Millennium Roman tendency to rely on precept to gird its traditional culture (in contrast to Eastern practice). And these occurred at a time when authority of all kinds in the West was losing its popular purchase (the crest of which development was delayed in the USA as compared to Europe, where it was kicked off by World War I). And the formerly strong parochial character of US Catholicism was also severely stressed by very rapid suburbanization and assimilation.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Most of the people I know who left Catholicism did so over marriage issues. They are divorced, remarried, and etc. Many became Episcopalians so they could continue liturgical practices that are more or less familiar. As one told me in so many words, I don't believe any of it but the ritual is comforting.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    Spare me any facile generalizations. The lack of beauty in most celebrations of Mass is not due to the text.

    Maybe I missed something, but who mentioned anything about the text of the Mass?
  • I don't believe any of it but the ritual is comforting.


    There is another tale about that old English m'lord, who, when asked if he believed Jesus rose from the dead answered, 'well, not really; no, not at all.' When asked, then, why he recited the creed which stated the resurrection on the third day, he said, 'well, it says "according to the scriptures", that doesn't mean that I believe it'.

    (I have very faithful Catholic friends who have said that they believe the mass to be only a memorial, Jesus not being objectively present in the sacrament.)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • (I have very faithful Catholic friends who have said that they believe the mass to be only a memorial, Jesus not being objectively present in the sacrament.)


    Then, according to the Council of Trent, they are not faithful Catholics.
  • I said 'faithful' because they have never ever been known to miss mass on Sundays and holy days, even often going on ferias, reared their children in the faith, and have always been active in parish life. I was astonished when the husband casually mentioned that 'it's just a memorial' over dinner one evening as we were talking about the Church. These are some of my very best and most beloved friends. I suspect that we might be surprised at quite a few people, even those whom we know well, were they to divulge the secrets of their hearts.
  • Well put, MJO. My brother is sort of the same way, except he doesn't see the difference between clergy and laypeople.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • I had a 'faithful' (in MJO's sense) Catholic say to me just the other day, somewhat in astonishment "but Catholics don't believe THAT any more!". It doesn't matter what 'that' was -- suffice to say it is in the catechism clear as day.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn