Where to look for jobs??
  • BeckyOstermann
    Posts: 5
    I am currently a MM-choral conducting student (graduating in May 2009) and I am beginning to look for a job. It is my strong hope that I can find sacred music job, either with a Catholic church or a Catholic university. I will not get much help from my major professor with this, (though he is generally wonderful with helping his graduates find suitable jobs) simply because he does not have contacts in these areas. Can anyone give me some ideas as to where (other than this very website) to look for job openings? Thank you very much!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Your local AGO chapter may have postings.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,417
    Try this AGO posting:
    http://www.agohq.org/profession/indexjobs.html

    Also, look in the back of (or take out your own ad in) recent issues
    of the AGO's monthly journal, The American Organist.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    Of course there is the Chronicle for Higher Education website and others that list jobs at college universities, including music positions at Catholic schools:
    chronicle.com/search/jobs

    You can try these sites too for jobs at parishes (along with some campus ministry positions):
    www.catholicjobs.com
    www.npm.org/Membership/hotline.html

    Occasionally there are positions listed here as well - the Jesuit College Job Bank:
    office.ajcunet.edu/jobbank/homepage.htm

    Peabody Conservatory in Baltimore (and other conservatories & music departments) have an online jobs bulletin:
    www.peabody.jhu.edu/jvb

    Some of the local AGO chapters list positions available (e.g. greater Washington DC: www.odw.org) and some larger dioceses have job sites that list music positions (e.g. Chicago: www.odw.org).

    Sam Schmitt
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Just FYI, you will certainly need a DMA or PhD to get a university job these days. Only world-class performers manage to get jobs with an MM anymore. Exceptions do exist, so keep an eye on the listings. Good luck.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    What I did was look at NPM and AGO sites: if a job was on both, I figured that it was (at least musically) a decent job and the parish was aiming for someone who had adequate professional formation. There is also a listing somewhere of diocesan office of worship sites that I looked on (can't find the link right now): this is VERY time-consuming, and doesn't turn up a lot, but there do pop up some interesting jobs in the South and Southwest from time to time.

    Pray about it: I remember when I converted, I was very uncomfortable (theologically) in my Protestant job, and just prayed a lot about it. Amazingly, I found out about a very well-paying part-time Catholic job by word of mouth...and it was one of the only liturgically-decent parishes in the diocese. Shame on them for not advertising it, but...
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 835
    Don't assume that the quality of the advertisement and its placement--or even particular statements in it--are accurate reflections of the job. Many pastors/supervisors delegate the task of publicity, with the result that the advertisement and the pastor's intentions may not be entirely in synch. Finding jobs by word of mouth has many advantages alongside the obvious problems of randomness and incipient unfairness. My own experience is that I've greatly enjoyed and prospered in the church jobs I've found via personal connections and that I've never really been happy with the jobs I got via public advertisements.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I have a page under REFERENCES that includes a variety of Church Music Job offerings:

    www.frogmusic.com/njinfo/

    noel
    www.thecatholichymnal.com
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Michael,

    I was speaking with a faculty member of a local college and she mentioned TERMINAL DEGREES....had never heard that phrase, but she explained it to mean that that was the highest degree required to fill a position....anyone care to elaborate?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It's another way of referring to a doctorate (since there isn't another degree in our system beyond that).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    From a recent AGO e-mail concerning job listings.

    "In an effort to increase the value of the benefits package for AGO voting members, access to the Positions Available listings on the AGO National Web site will be limited exclusively to AGO voting members as of Monday, December 15th."

    Now you have to have a membership number to access the site.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Chonak, that was my reaction, but it appears to be the highest level of degree required to hold a position...in this college, it takes a Doctorate to head the English department, but only a Masters to head the music department.

    Of course, I have a friend who graduated from that music department with his degree in music performance, his performance being Barbershop Quartet.

    I wish that that was a joke. But it's not.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    As a loyal member, it is nice to finally HAVE a benefit. The health insurance is a joke....not a group policy so they can and do deny anybody for any reason.


    "In an effort to increase the value of the benefits package for AGO voting members
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    No, a terminal degree is the highest degree one can achieve in a field of study. For performers it is generally the Doctor of Musical Arts (DMA), but for theorists and musicologists, it is the PhD. Education folks have the Ed.D along with the PhD. There are some fields, such as Library Science and Social Work where the terminal degree is a master's degree (e.g., MLS). Most universities will expect a terminal degree for hire these days because there are so many people that have them and the institution wants to be comparable to their peer institutions. Sure, there are plenty of professors out there with master's degrees, but that possibility rarely exists today for new hires.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Ah, ah, ah, Michael: MLIS.

    Amd what's the deal with the Artist's Diploma? I was under the impression that's higher than a Doctorate.
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 835
    The Artist Diploma qualification is part of the older system of conservatory degrees, which were for many years independent of liberal arts academia.
    The usual sequence was (and is, someplaces): Diploma (undergraduate), Performance Diploma (or Performer's Certificate), Artist Diploma.
    The Artist Diploma was the highest qualification in music performance until the DMA was invented in the 1960s.
    The DMA was created to provide a full-fledged doctoral degree in performance, primarily as a credential for musicians serving as faculty members in universities and colleges which require terminal degrees for such positions.
    Places that still offer an Artist Diploma use it either (1) as an extra credential (implying virtuosity) alongside the DMA or (2) as a freestanding qualification for perfomers whose careers won't intersect with the liberal arts tenure system.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The AGO does offer degrees, accredited by the New York State Board of Regents, that may be of value of some...the CAGO is the Bachelors, AAGO the Masters and FAGO the Doctorate. It was common earlier for serious church musicians to attempt to attain both...a doctorate AND the FAGO. The AGO degree proves ability as a church musician...much better chance that this person can play hymns than an organist graduating from a school as good as even Oberlin, for example.

    Where's the value in these degrees? Well if you know of anyone who is more an itinerate musician, floating from musical opportunity to another, gaining practical experience and knowledge without pursuing classroom studies who can sit and pass two or three days of exams including theory, counterpoint and playing, it's an inexpensive degree.And you do not have to work your way through them....for example, sit for three days, walk out with the AAGO and then be able to command Master's Degree level salaries.

    Worked for me.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Noel, are those generally recognized by employers though? In practice, could I actually get a job with a Bachellor's degree (or no degree) and a FAGO? Would I get paid the same with one? Or are they just recognized in theory? I'd prefer a college education, but I can see the value of them for someone who's accumulated the relevant skills through experience rather than education.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    They are recognized...and are often rated higher than academic degrees, since the skills are practical church music skills....many major music schools turn out organ grads without teaching them how to play hymns, accompany singers...the things we have to do well to make a living. It helps that the AGO salary guides are used to established pay grades and they include academic and AGO degrees in the charts.

    Back in the 1940's-1960's it was rare for a major church organist not to have both degrees.

    They even have a Chm degree for choir directors. Flunked it twice, the second time along a college professor with his doctorate! Tough exam.
  • BeckyOstermann
    Posts: 5
    Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions--gives me a starting point in this process. I am aware that most college positions require a doctorate...and I might end up with a doctorate yet. I am not thinking of a normal faculty job though. I would like a postition as music director at a college without a music program (ie. a Catholic liberal arts college), that simply has a choir that sings for the campus liturgies (and some also do concerts now and then). Such as at the new Wyoming Catholic College, or Magdalen College, etc.... Anybody have any comments on whether or not it is necessary or expected to have a doctorate for that? Wyoming Catholic College's current choir director does not have a music degree at all--but he does have a doctorate in philosophy and is on the faculty as a philosophy professor. It gave me a little hope, anyway;)
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 968
    I just received Wyoming's choir CD in the mail not long ago... I must say i'd be very happy to hear them sing at Mass!
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