Why are the odds of surviving as a musician longer at...
  • a Protestant church instead of a Catholic church without being fired.

    Many of us have worked in Catholic and Protestant churches.

    What are the elements that cause Catholic church music jobs to be short-lived when the same person, in a Protestant job, almost has a job for life?

    Let's avoid the "well, when I was at..." discussion, instead, look at the real issues.

    Naturally, some will ignore this and post what they like. Which may on its own be an explanation why these positions can be so tenuous.

    Added: Clarification, Jobs that end in being Fired.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    In Catholic churches one is often hired by one person, who may be insecure about his musical knowledge.

    Protestant job decisions are often made by vestries or similar. Having a broad-based hiring committee is a protection, because more people invest in you, and they are often there for life rather than for a term.

  • remuneration
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • In the Protestant churches, the hiring committee is usually bent on its own ideology, having nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel or music. In Catholic parishes, increasingly, the ideology is hidden in words such as "Vatican 2". Sometimes the people espousing such nonsense aren't even aware of it.
    Thanked by 1Scott_W
  • I agree with Kathy that insecurity about music on the part of those doing the hiring is likely a big contributor to instability.

    I would argue (but here is probably not the place) that this situation is the inevitable consequence of allowing musically illiterate fake folk-song writers to drive the music of the church for so long. (Yes, I am in a bad mood about it right now...)
  • Short lived as in the person hired quits or gets fired? Or maybe both...I'm with Michael though, far too many totally unqualified people get into these jobs and when someone educated and competent comes along they can't handle it. I also sense that Catholic musicians are more deeply invested in the importance of music/liturgy than their Protestant counterparts. More passion=more tension.
  • Non-Catholic jobs can be just as volatile, and because things come about as a result of committee votes, the politicking seems worse.
  • Fired.
  • MBWMBW
    Posts: 175
    Very few catholic congregations or priests grew up with any expectations (high or otherwise) that music would or could contribute substantially to the spiritual or financial health of the parish. I believe that this situation has improved over the last 50 years. However, it is still rare to find Catholic clerics who have respect and appreciation for what music can contribute to their ministry. It is even rarer to find a critical mass of congregants who are willing to confront a priest who is making a poor musical decision.

    The upshot is that, in the great majority of parishes, it is sufficient if some noise (IE music of some sort) starts when the Mass is supposed to start, and ends when the Mass ends. Quality in whatever style and a thoughtful marriage of texts and music are seldom considerations.

    On top of this rather grim situation, we have those parishes and priests who feel (I use the word advisedly) that they know what is good music for their liturgies and woe to the sensitive, insightful and talented musician who tries, however gently, to lead that horse to a different river.

    On the other hand, in Protestant churches where music is often regarded more seriously, musicians' tenures are abruptly ended through the politics of committees. I think that neither a Catholic nor a Protestant musician is ever very safe in their position, and that tenures are probably about the same in each denomination.
  • Church musicians of whatever stripe still have better tenure than some of the gigging musicians I know: Turning up to a gig to find that it's been double-booked or someone has changed their mind etc is not that uncommon.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    In my 24th year tenure at current position. I have to believe that is due in no small part to remaining flexible and somewhat eclectic. That approach is neither ideal nor much endorsed here, but going from managing one parish program to four sites and waves of changing clergy with diverse tastes, I know that being conversant in many genres has been an attribute and plus. You can't change the big picture by being fired.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Surviving in a place is situation specific and can vary from place to place. I have been where I am for 15 years, but had been connected with that congregation for 35 years prior to accepting the job. In other words, I know many people. It makes a difference.
  • Of course, in Charles' (Melo's) place, it helps that he's an institution by now!

    So -- at what point does one become "part of the furniture"?
  • Great points, Melo and Charles. I don't care for a lot of the music I have to play at my job, but 99.9% of the time I just do my job, do it well, and with a smile. I make an effort and spend extra time (and money!) on music I think will make them happy, and learning new music never killed anyone. No one I work with knows how I really feel about contemporary Christian music-not in the way that, say, folks here on the forum do. They don't need to and I wouldn't want them to. (And hey, gotta admit at the end of the day there are some things I like after all).
    I'm not there to force them to adopt MY preferences, although some very gentle encouragement is always at play (Yes Mrs SoandSo I know Doris played the Maple Leaf Rag for you! Ya know, I just couldn't do it like she could, so I stick to what I do best,*friendly laugh-and-walk-away*). If I know that the congregation is moved by our performance and we helped in some small way to deliver God's message for them, I don't care what the music was that made that happen because that is my ultimate goal. Maybe I'm lucky in this way to work in a Protestant church. My personal expectations (routinely smashed in my home church) are much higher. Someday before I'm dead, I want to attend Mass and hear the Tallis Scholars doing Des Prez's 'Missa Pange Lingua.' I wish church was like that every day. That's what moves me, but that's not where I work. I do, however, want them to be as moved by their music as I am by mine.

    Connections are helpful. I did not know the music director when I was hired, but it became quickly clear that we knew a lot of the same people and I had even taught her niece when I was a GA. If the director wants to hire someone to perform with us she knows she can count on me to find someone, or if she has someone in mind I've likely went to school with them or know them from elsewhere in the music world here.










    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Fidem,

    What about what the Church asks of us?
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    I know of three cases of firings and they all occurred shortly after a change of Pastor (the program in place is too expensive or does not appeal to the new pastor's sensibilities).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    So -- at what point does one become "part of the furniture"?

    Chris, if you really knew me more than what you presuppose, you would know how far from "furniture" status I actually am. That supposition was not charitable, bud.
    Does it help you to know that for the first time in 45 years, a year or so ago, I received my first written reprimand for challenging the status quo. Yeah, I'm still here. CGZ, I don't judge you, I'm too occupied with the wood in my own eye.
    What about what the Church asks of us?

    What? Do you mean beyond the "Love the Lord, your God. And love your neighbor as I have loved you."? Darn, Chris, we all fall short.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    What about what the Church asks of us?


    It is unfortunate that the Church does more waffling and evading than it does asking anything specific of us - especially with music. The Church pays lip service to many things it is clear even it doesn't really believe.
  • I understand what you are getting at, Charles, but I would say that what the Church asks is entirely clear. The waffling and lip service and the like is due to a failing of individuals, not a shortcoming of the Church herself. I think it is important to maintain this distinction.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    It is a failure of leadership, or more often, a complete lack of leadership. There is also a sea of documents of questionable current worth. Many of those are superseded, or concerned with areas where authority has been turned over to conferences of bishops.
  • Here are the relevant points that I've been able to pull out of everyone's comments so far:

    ...they are often there for life rather than for a term.


    Short term administrations can be waited out, and then the PIPs who think they're in charge can stage a coup. Also, new administrations usually bring new policy with them, and things are constantly changing in the church environment, so nobody thinks anything is really permanent.

    ...musically illiterate...


    This is a pandemic in the United States, at least. We have whole generations of people who are musically illiterate. They can recognize certain famous melodies, but they can't tell you who wrote them, nor could they tell you the names of major works of Western music. Much of the time, they can't even tell you who sings their favorite song on the radio.

    Very few catholic congregations or priests grew up with any expectations (high or otherwise) that music would or could contribute substantially to the spiritual or financial health of the parish.


    This is true: most people think that it doesn't matter what you choose to do for music so long as the people can sing it and/or like it. External participation is emphasized: so long as people are singing, who cares what it is?

    ...waves of changing clergy with diverse tastes...


    Everything depends on who is in charge at the time. When people know that the current Pastor won't be there anymore in ten years, they know they have ample opportunities to change what they don't like if they can just be patient.

    ...music I think will make them happy...


    My apologies for a direct disagreement here, but this is one of the major issues with music in the Catholic Church today: people expect to be "made happy" when they come to Mass, and they expect the music to do that for them. I personally do not take whether or not the music will "make people happy" or if the PIPs will like it into consideration: that's not the point of Mass.

    I know of three cases of firings and they all occurred shortly after a change of Pastor (the program in place is too expensive or does not appeal to the new pastor's sensibilities).


    Again, a changing of the guard usually brings with it change in personnel. Certain people rely on the administrative structure to support them, and when that support system is gone, there is nothing stopping people from removing them if they wish. A good example is that there is a teacher I know who is only still teaching at our school because the Pastor is protecting this person. When our Pastor leaves for a new parish, this person will be removed very quickly, because the support system will no longer be there.

    The Church pays lip service to many things it is clear even it doesn't really believe.


    Anyone ever write the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei? If anyone has had success with contacting them, and having a situation rectified because of them, please let me know. I haven't heard of many cases, but those that I do know of have been unsuccessful, and responses have not been received in a timely manner.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    In the Protestant churches, the hiring committee is usually bent on its own ideology, having nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel or music. In Catholic parishes, increasingly, the ideology is hidden in words such as "Vatican 2". Sometimes the people espousing such nonsense aren't even aware of it.


    ^^This touches on it. If your are in a job in another denomination, the battles were decided long ago and you are basically curator of a musical museum and with it comes stability.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • @Clerget: I agree that it's not right that so much emphasis is placed nowadays on making people "happy". But if the issue is keeping your job, sadly too many of us have to suck it up and do just that.

    @Chris: What, exactly, does the Church ask of its musicians? Many here already expressed confusion about this. Is there a specific document or statement from the Church that spells out exactly what we should be doing?
  • It is a failure of leadership, or more often, a complete lack of leadership. There is also a sea of documents of questionable current worth. Many of those are superseded, or concerned with areas where authority has been turned over to conferences of bishops.


    I agree, but let's not identify the Church with either its leadership or its documents. The Catechism (946ff) has a nice discussion, and nowhere identifies the Church with either, though they are both quite important and do a disservice insofar as they do not -- as you describe -- live up to their purposes.
  • Charles (Melo)

    I'm sorry I offended you by my comment. Exactly the opposite was my intention. (I had the goal as a 20-something to get a teaching post in my 20s, and to buried from this same teaching post some 60 years later.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Thanks, Chris. Sometimes the best laid plans....
    Well, I'm beginning to see the sunset.