Suggestions for new children's choir director?
  • triciamsullivan
    Posts: 1
    Hi all, I am new here and wanted to reach out to you to get some suggestions. I am by no means new to liturgical music, I have been cantoring for over 15 years, assisting in music planning/direction for over 5, but just recently became a volunteer director of our children's choir. The person who filled this position in previous years handles the entirety of the monthly Children's Mass from start to finish. She was over loaded and wanted help. I offered, with my background it seemed the best option to help out, she excitedly accepted. I scheduled meetings with the Adult Choir director/music director and priest to discuss their vision for the group and where they thought there was room for growth. I had a plan in mind to take the "oh aren't they cute" choir to a new level to be a valuable part of the Liturgy.
    * Note the choir only meets one Wednesday a month, prior to the Sunday of the Children's Mass.

    Fast forward 2 weeks after stepping up, the previous director doesn't want to let go. I then try to meld what she wants to do with what Father has asked of me (no more praise/worship music with hand signs/choreography). We made it through our first Mass this past weekend. I walked in to find 2 guitar players, a electric bass amped relatively loud and full drum set. They also reassigned music from the cantor I had worked with/coached to a child who has never sung a note in front of anyone besides her parents. Anyway, after the Mass our priest praised the selection of music (I was adamant on having liturgically appropriate music) and hoped that things would continue down that route.

    Now, my question after all of that back story... I'm working with kids who mostly do not read music, ages 4-12, attempting to do real music. What suggestions do you have for choir anthems, age appropriate hymns that will be easy while still being liturgically based, and anything else for a beginning choir director? I have found the Mass Jubilee by Michael Magnan and plan on implementing it next month, are there any other good settings that are kid level easy?

    Thanks for your input! God bless!!
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Bail out now while you still have your sanity. Once Father takes control, and the choir can meet more than once a month, step back in.
    Thanked by 6Adam Wood MatthewRoth CHGiffen musiclover88 canadash tomjaw
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Teach them to read music.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Sunday of the Children's Mass


    This is not a thing. This should not be a thing.

    Noel is right.

    This situation will drive you completely insane and then you will be of no use to anyone.

    You may want to talk to the Pastor and see if you can get everything wrangled in the right direction. If the Pastor is too weak and spineless to clean up this mess, you don't want to have any part of it.

    IF the Pastor will actually work towards the liturgical music vision you two discussed (instead of just agreeing when there s no cost to do so), then you have something worth working on.

    As to the actual question...
    Teach them to read music, starting with chant. Words with Wings or Ward method or something similar. Get them singing the Mass.
    Thanked by 5MatthewRoth CHGiffen irishtenor canadash tomjaw
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    And Adam knows insanity. He proves it often when he posts.
    I walked in to find 2 guitar players, a electric bass amped relatively loud and full drum set. They also reassigned music from the cantor I had worked with/coached to a child who has never sung a note in front of anyone besides her parents
    And should have walked out.
    Thanked by 4irishtenor MatthewRoth M. Jackson Osborn tomjaw
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,191
    Why is there a "children's mass? Does it mean they do not go the rest of the month? Why are they segregated? Why should they sing "different" music from the adults? Are they "less" members than the rest of the community?

    I have spent 20 years integrating children into regular liturgical life. My experience: the children are more capable than we give them credit. You want proof: My girls choir,aged 3rd to 5th grade are singing the 3 part Faure Messe Basse. Hard work but they are doing it.

    Kids:we sell them short in the Roman rite. Kiddie masses, kiddie readings and kiddie songs. All stupid and beneath the dignity of most children.
    Thanked by 6CHGiffen CharlesW irishtenor MatthewRoth musiclover88 tomjaw
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    The parish I just started at has a custom of a monthly children's choir at one of their masses, but they rehearse every week and do the same music as the adults. In the past that has meant some pretty silly stuff. The adults are learning actual hymns now (with theology that extends beyond "God is good") and the kids will do the same.

    Whatever I decide to do with this custom (it runs on a schedule with children's liturgy of the word, which I have unexpressed opinions about), the kids will learn the same music as the adults. And if past experience is any indication, they'll learn it quick and they'll learn it good. It might even be a vehicle for introducing music to the congregation. Children learn a new Gloria much quicker than an all-volunteer adult choir, for example...
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Teach them a Gregorian Sanctus. Guarantee they'll like it, and so will the adults because children are cute.
    Thanked by 1tsoapm
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Kevin,

    As for the question, "Why is there a children's Mass", I can't answer that, but I can tell you the forms they took when I was growing up and when I visited other churches:

    1) A youth instrumental ensemble which plays at the ordinarily scheduled Mass, once a month. Accompanies the four hymn sandwich and plays on Easter Sunday. Instrumentation: whatever you want--singers, woodwind and brass instruments, keyboard, and yes, guitar. Back when I was in high school, I was in this group playing the tenor saxophone (ca. 2000-2002). **

    2) Once a month Mass with children dismissed before the first reading. Music: usually the adult choir, singing the four hymn sandwich and sometimes something for Holy Communion (by "something" I am not talking about Palestrina, Tallis, etc.).

    3) LifeTeen (visiting another parish).

    **Now, to the director's credit, he did try a men's schola, as well as introduce some Latin forms of the Agnus Dei into our musical diet, and we did sing traditional hymns occasionally such as "O Come, O Come Emmanuel". I must confess, at that time, I thought the Agnus Dei was boring.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Ryand,

    What is your repertoire at your parish? Hymns and Gregorian? Does the priest sing his parts? Do you have the Ordinary Form in English? Latin? I am just curious.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4Nx0rNlAM
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    That's what the old music schedules looked like.

    The priests sing. And they want different music. So they hired me.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Noel probably has a point. You must have artistic control if you really want to get anything done. That being said, do not expect any type of harmony singing (2-parts or more) from any child younger than 10 or 11, especially if they can't read music and they don't have any experience singing polyphony at all. When things calm down and you get some more artistic control, begin with teaching chant. Then pick a strategic tone to sustain as harmony, near the end or something that creates a 4th or 5th, and have some of the older kids hold it out while everyone else continues the melody. This will create some instant harmony. The older kids might be able to handle some two-part stuff as long as you're teaching them solfeggio. I agree that a "Children's Mass" should not be a thing at all. I once read on this forum the following statement, although I can't remember which genius said it: "The only word that should go before Mass is Holy."
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    "The only word that should go before Mass is Holy."

    The earliest of the Christmas Eve Masses at a former parish was semi-officially described as a "Family Mass" or "Children's Mass" ... but it was also unofficially known as the "Zoo Mass" by many.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Teach the children who can't yet read anything to sing some chant, or a simple hymn declaring their love for Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. (O Lord I am not worthy comes to mind, but so does Jesu Dulcis Memoria, and Orbis Factor. After you've taught them the melody by rote (just hang on everyone!) then give them the music, so that they can associate what they've already learned with what's on the page.

    Banish the unholy instruments.

    Make sure that the pastor is in your corner, or find the door yourself.


    Thanked by 5CHGiffen ryand MatthewRoth canadash tomjaw
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 75
    I had a plan in mind to take the "oh aren't they cute" choir to a new level to be a valuable part of the Liturgy.


    This. It may take time, but they can do it. Keep it as your long-term focus.

    After you've taught them the melody by rote


    I think rote learning is a great tool, especially at this age. It allows them to really listen to the music, which is the basis for learning intervals. Children learn to speak before they can read. Sing first; then add music reading when they are ready.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I think rote learning is a great tool, especially at this age. It allows them to really listen to the music, which is the basis for learning intervals. Children learn to speak before they can read. Sing first; then add music reading when they are ready.


    I had a MusEd professor (a professional tenor as well) tell us the same thing: don't be afraid of the big, bad "R" word: ROTE! It's effective and simple, and has all of the effects listed in the quotation. It's how we learn. Not to say that sight-singing should be neglected, but if they can't accurately sing a melody back by rote, they certainly aren't ready to learn sight-singing.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Abbot Jonathan CoelAbbot Jonathan Coel
    Posts: 167
    I agree with most every bit of advice given in this post. Once a month rehearsals are useless! It should be more like 3 one hour rehearsals a week. You must have total and absolute artistic control and full support of the pastor. Discipline, structure, control, commitment, consistency, highest quality, repetition, our all for the glory, worship and adoration of Almighty GOD! These should be our every watchwords and basics.

    When are people, especially in music, going to learn that when training children in anything, once a week is not enough. You're training not only minds, but muscles, ears, etc.! You're establishing a discipline, routine and skill sets that will be with them for the rest of their lives. It's no wonder people don't sing well in America anymore; not to mention the Catholic Church. Not everyone will be able to commit to this, but for those that do, their lives will be immeasurably enriched and they will be an inspiration that will lead to increase and greater participation.

    And if I hear the term "kid/child appropriate level" one more time, I'm going to scream! We should ALL be training our children to strive to the level of great cathedral, chapel and collegiate children's/boys/girls choirs. Sure, children 2nd grade and under should be learning great folk and nursery songs along with the basics of rudimentary music theory and CORRECT vocal singing, but for goodness sake, WAKE UP people!!! If one healthy normal child in this world can learn and sing the Rachmaninov VOCALIZE and plainsong chants and great anthems and motets, then ALL children can. We as responsible, educated and knowledgably trained adults should help them to strive towards this goal. Look at the Suzuki method in strings education, the Royal School of Church Music. Search and study all the wonderful examples on YouTube.

    And for goodness sake, have some backbone in working with adults, clergy and parents for the good and sake of our children. We have a moral, spiritual and God ordained responsibility to do none less!
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