Heretic and Don't Even Know It...
  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    This crossed my inbox today. It reminds me of the "Wake Up" thread where we started discussing 'different paths (beliefs in different gods and religions) and being able to 'pray together' as we are all coming in the end to the same God. Phoey!

    http://m.ncregister.com/blog/longenecker/this-is-arianism-all-over-again-and-we-must-fight-it#.Vgx4EoWqTFx
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,955
    Well, he's engaging in something of a bait-and-switch. He's effectively conflating modern Unitarianism with Arianism, and while there is some overlap, Arianism for all its heresy was not like modern Unitarianism (after all, modern Unitarians are not really much like the Unitarians of the early Modern era). It's not merely a matter of specificity of theology. He's not the first to do this, of course, so I don't attribute originality to him in this.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    Liam-

    I believe you are missing the point...

    The difference between Arius and the modern heretics is that Arius was actually explicit in his teaching. The modern heretics are not. They inhabit our seminaries, our monasteries, our rectories and presbyteries. They are the modernist clergy who dominate the mainstream Protestant denominations and populate the Catholic Church as well.

    Many of them don’t even know they are heretics. They have been poorly catechized from the start. Their beliefs about Jesus Christ have remained fuzzy and ill-formed. They hold their beliefs in a sentimental haze in which they vaguely feel that what they believe is “Christian” but would not want to pin it down too much. This is because they have been taught that dogma is “divisive”. They deliberately keep their beliefs vague, and focus on “pastoral concerns” in order to avoid the difficult questions. They have been taught that dogma is part of an earlier age in the church and that we have matured and moved on from such nit picky sort of questions. “After all” they say with a weaselly smile, “God is bigger than our definitions isn’t he? He can’t be put into a box…”
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    It's a point, but not really that important. Modern-day adherents of liberalism in religion may have adopted an Arian Christology, but that's only incidental. It's not their main belief.

    Their real dogma is indifferentism, and if they spin theories of Christology, revelation, or morality, those all exist to justify it: that is, to justify their belief that one's salvation doesn't depend on accepting divinely revealed doctrine or receiving the sacraments. This probably sets them apart from the Arians.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    It doesn't matter what the minute differences are between yesterday's heretic and today's heretic: it makes no difference whether it is their 'main belief' or even an incidental philosophy. It is all a most insidiously beautiful error which leads to even a greater rot. Heresy is heresy, no matter the shades of gray.

    The fuzziness of doctrine held by these malefactors displaces the true adherents to the one true religion and places them (adherents) on the fringe of church and society. It minimizes their voice and their presence in the church and the world by simply labeling them "narrow minded", "old fashioned", "bigoted", "arrogant", etc. It then allows and promotes any and all proponents that have anything that slightly resembles the teaching of Christ (even a morsel of the truth mixed with a legion of falsehood) to exist within the walls of the Church, and worse, to become its bureaucracy, alter and disfigure her doctrine and dogma, which is then projected to the masses in a way that causes utter confusion and the loss of true faith. The large majority of "the church" (with a small 'c') then stumbles forward into darkness and confusion. That is precisely where the church is today as it was in the day of Arianism.
  • To Chonak, just above -

    Lucid observations which could tease out an interesting three-hour conversation-debate! To add a tad to your remark, can one even speak of 'salvation' as being a matter of concern to the subjects of your remarks? Isn't it more or less true that they hardly believe in sin, and, therefore, hardly believe that there is anything from which they need to be 'saved'. Nor do they believe in objective Truth - nor, as follows, objective evil. What does (or could) 'salvation' mean in this context?
  • Holding a heretical belief does not make you a heretic - it may be a result of ignorance. Heresy requires a degree of knowledge and purpose of will, a deliberate choice to reject the truth, which most of the people lamented above do not have, because of their ignorance and malformation. Not a saying modernism is not a problem , or not widespread.
  • Pelucid.... and charitable..... admirable qualities, bonniebede!
  • Their real dogma is indifferentism, and if they spin theories of Christology, revelation, or morality, those all exist to justify it: that is, to justify their belief that one's salvation doesn't depend on accepting divinely revealed doctrine or receiving the sacraments. This probably sets them apart from the Arians.


    Sounds like a re-reading of Trent is in order.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Their real dogma is indifferentism
    This.
    God doesn't care as long as you're a nice person?

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    Bonniebede

    Not necessarily so.

    St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".

    Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions. Considering that the human intellect can assent only to truth, real or apparent, studied pertinacity — as distinct from wanton opposition — supposes a firm subjective conviction which may be sufficient to inform the conscience and create "good faith". Such firm convictions result either from circumstances over which the heretic has no control or from intellectual delinquencies in themselves more or less voluntary and imputable. A man born and nurtured in heretical surroundings may live and die without ever having a doubt as to the truth of his creed. On the other hand a born Catholic may allow himself to drift into whirls of anti-Catholic thought from which no doctrinal authority can rescue him, and where his mind becomes incrusted with convictions, or considerations sufficiently powerful to overlay his Catholic conscience. It is not for man, but for Him who searcheth the mind and heart, to sit in judgment on the guilt which attaches to an heretical conscience.
    Newadvent
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,955
    Francis

    Arians were neither indifferentists nor vague. Quite the opposite. Ditto early modern Unitarians. Fr Longenecker is being too casual and shallow with his history.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    Here is the entire page on heresy. A fascinating read.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_IV
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    Liam

    Let us presume that your observation is "more historically accurate". What is the difference in your conclusion?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,955
    Francis

    The difference is that Arians shared more metaphyisical and epistemological assumptions with orthodox Christians than modern Unitarians do. Arians and the Orthodox could have more effective fights, but also more effectively share culture. (Perhaps the best example being the reign of Theodoric the Goth in the early 6th century.) Fr Longenecker seems to be trying to invoke the Arian example for its rhetorical value (which is notional IMO) and to try to make defenders of the Faith into latter-day Athanasiuses. But the conflicts are different. Apologetics has a much more difficult time with people who don't share metaphysical and epistemological assumptions - so you have to spend more time on delineating those assumptions. Assumptions are, in a sense, pre-logical - you can't as readily syllogistically prove assumptions are correct or incorrect, because assumptions are more about plausibility thresholds and intuitions. The terrain of conflict is different, and it's important for people to be aware of that when they enter into it. It's more like a naval battle than a land battle.
  • Holding a heretical belief does not make you a heretic - it may be a result of ignorance.

    "Heresy" implies, via its root, that one has made a choice. If all you've been taught is heresy, are you a heretic? If you subsequently get taught correctly and reject that teaching, then yes.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I have heard priests say that the TLM folks are heretics, because they will not follow the will and mind of the church in its liturgical directives. Heresy is relative, I'm afraid. Also a bit subjective. Much is called heresy that isn't, and the Holy Spirit is not behind everything that occurs. He just gets blamed for it.
  • Charles,

    Heresy isn't relative, despite what you assert. On the other hand, I will happily agree with you that the word is used more widely than it should be, on the one hand, and not widely enough on the other.

    Modernism, Liberalism, and Indifferentism are all heresies.

    Living in the modern era, being generous and being responsive instead of reactive are not heresies.

    Meeting with Kim Davis fits the Pope's "going to the peripheries" approach. So does meeting those who push agendas contrary to the Church's teaching. Making political hay out of these meetings (i.e., "see, the pope agrees with the LGBTQI message" ) is dishonest.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    There is genuine heresy, such as defying defined doctrines of the church. Then there are actions with which someone disagrees being labeled as heresy - it probably isn't in most of these cases. Then there is over-reacting to little things that are not of any real importance to the non-pharisaical - minor things called heresy by the over-scrupulous. It's all crazy!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    Liam... thank you for your in depth explanation of the differences between Arianism and Modernism. I guess in the end it begs the question, does the present Church (Catholic) in general, suffer from a mass heretical fallout?