Can propers be sung as/ instead hymns during EF low Mass?
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    And then: could they be sung in English? Could they be selected ad lib?- from another day?
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    No.

    De Musica Sacra 14(c):
    It is strictly forbidden for the faithful in unison or for a commentator to recite aloud with the priest the parts of the Proper, Ordinary, and canon of the Mass. This prohibition extends to both Latin, and a vernacular word-for-word translation.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,050
    The quotation above merely forbids the faithful from reciting the propers or ordinary with the priest. It does not forbid what Mr. Bednarz is asking about.

    I have never seen any official rubrics or legislation which would forbid the congregation from singing the ordinary at a low mass, or hymns based on the propers (presumably in English), or the choir from singing the porpers and ordinary at a low mass, for that matter. I have frequently seen the last case prohibited in non-official sources, though never with any citation to any rubric. I would appreciate any reference to such a rule (or at least a reasonable interpretation of a rule which is not black and white).
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    It is out of context: the document later legislates the dialogue Mass, which includes reciting almost everything not said secretly by the priest (Offertory, Canon, and such).

    I can’t say it never happened (the Messe basse setting of Fauré indicates otherwise) but it is not permissible to sing the Ordinary at Mass if the propers are not sung at least on one note. Firstly, the 1962 rubrics, somewhat unwisely, permit a priest to recite the readings at a Missa Cantata, and they can always be sung recto tono. So there is no reason the priest can’t sing his parts if the choir is singing everything else. He at least sings the collects, and he can sing recto tono or recite them if even that be too much... Secondly, the rubrics allow for either a more solemn Mass or for using the rubrics of Low Mass (the English norm as Fortescue liked to remind his readers) and having only one or two servers.

    I see no reason why paraphrased vernacular propers are disallowed. Certainly a paraphrased vernacular Ordinary like the Deutschmesse is allowed.
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 435
    When the parish I was at was preparing to celebrate its first High TLM (on the Second Sunday of Lent), we did a "dress rehearsal" of sorts at the previous Sunday's low TLM (not my idea). If memory serves me right, we actually sang the Introit, maybe the Offertory, and Communion of II Lent at those times in the Mass on I Lent. Was/Is that legal/licit? Unsure. But it did get our new schola's feet wet for that first Missa Cantata the next week (with schola guest-directed by Fr. Samuel Weber), and that was one of few highlights of my tenure there.
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    From the Guidelines for Liturgical Services according to the 1962 Missale Romanum Music for Low Mass by Rev. Scott A. Haynes, S.J.C. Canons Regular of St. John Cantius, Chicago :

    Question:
    Is there any music, which is not allowed at the Low Mass?

    Answer:
    It is not permitted to sing any of the prayers or responses (i.e. “Et cum spiritu tuo,” “Amen,” etc.), nor any of the Proper (i.e. “Introit,” “Gradual,,” etc.), nor any of the Ordinary (i.e. “Kyrie,” “Gloria,” etc.), whether in Latin or in the vernacular.

    From Psallite Sapienter by B. Andrew Mills:

    During Missa Privata, it is not allowed to sing any portion of the Mass itself. Thus, it would be wrong to sing the Ordinary alone, or the Ordinary and Proper, unless the priest’s parts and the responses were also sung; similarly, it would be wrong to sing these latter, unless the choir’s parts were also sung (which would result in the Mass’s
    becoming a Missa Cantata).
    Thanked by 1JonathanKK
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    During offertory at dialogue Mass I can sing "Tua Munera" or ""What you Gave Us For the Taking," portions of the "Lauda SIon" or even " City of God"; but could an SImple English proper be sung? Would a polyphonic piece that contained words of a proper from another day be prohibited or permitted? Could an office antiphon or office hymn be sung at a Low Mass? At Our parish "High Mass" the choir only sang in Latin, & not too much beyond the propers, yet other neighboring parishes especially the Polish, regularly sang sentimental hymns during the high Mass. But the Dialogue Low Mass was not as restricted- President Kennedy's funeral was a low Mass, yet contained
    a wide range of music- I think a portion of a polyphonic Sanctus was song during the offertory.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    MS 33. It is desirable that the assembly of the faithful should participate in the songs of the Proper as much as possible, especially through simple responses
    How do the liturgical documents MS SC (the spirit of VC2) influence the current EF's/ and how are differences in the 1962 Missal reconciled with them? I know of a few parishes where the congregation is encouraged to sing the ordinaries and processional hymns at the current EF High Mass.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    When the liturgical law talks about a proper it seems to refer the proper of that Mass being celebrated. Mixing and matching propers does not come about until the late 1960s with the revised legislation as well as the Graduale Simplex.

    I think an office hymn could be sung at Low Mass.

    Kennedy’s funeral Mass is not to be seen as an example of the paradigm: it actually is the anti-paradigm, if I might indulge, given that a Pontifical High Mass was possible.

    Singing the ordinary at Sung Mass is, IIRC, encouraged, perhaps roundaboutly, in “De musica sacra.” It was done at all the Sung Masses I attended in Europe though it is less frequently the case in America.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,050
    JulieColl - Thanks for the citations - I'm just wondering where I can find the official rubrics for these statements.

  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Excellent question. Maybe this will help: The New Rubrics of the Roman Breviary and Missal: Translation and Commentary by Fr. Patrick Murphy. (1960).

    It's not official, but it might give some clues on where to look in the rubrics of the 1962 Missale Romanum.

    There's something on p. 197 about the people at a Low Mass saying the Proper of the Mass with the priest "when capable of doing so."

    It also says on p. 197 that congregational singing of vernacular hymns is permissible as long as they are not literal translations of the liturgical texts and are appropriate to the various parts of the Mass.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,050
    That's just it - I can't find anything in the 1962 rubrics to answer the question. Even an authoritative commentary (with some reference to the rubrics) would be good.

    And I'm wondering about the passage you cite, since it permits what is expressly forbidden by the 1958 Instruction De Musica Sacra - namely, the congregation saying with the priest at a low mass anything that they are permitted to sing at a high mass (see johnmann's post above).

    Perhaps this rule was changed after 1958? If so, where?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,478
    The perils of incomplete quotation! Actually #14(c) says
    c. It is strictly forbidden to say aloud the parts of the Proper,
    Ordinary and Canon of the Mass together with the priest celebrant,
    in Latin or in translation, and this applies either to the faithful or
    to a commentator, with the exceptions laid down in number 31.

    and #31 includes
    c. The third degree is that in which the faithful recite parts of
    the Ordinary of the Mass with the celebrant, namely: Gloria in
    excelsis Deo, the Credo, the Sanctus·Benedictus and the Agnus Dei.
    Thanked by 1rich_enough
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,367
    Plus the Propers and the responses of the server.
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