False archaism?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/the-kjv-and-the-thereofs-thereof/

    "Example 2– You know how we take pains to pronounce every verb final -eth? Something new converts really have trouble getting used to?

    Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, andbaketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto. (Isa. 44:15 KJV)

    Yeah, I’ve got news for you. In 1611, all those –eths were pronounced -s… just like we do. In other words, when we read the KJV out loud, pronouncing every –eth in an attempt to be authentically archaic and true to the KJV, ironically we’re pronouncing it the way no KJV reader ever did. Spelling tends to be conservative, while pronunciation changes, e.g. through, though, rough, bough, ought… (I pity people trying to learn to speak English.)"
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    I doubt this.
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    Interesting.

    General Tso's chicken may not be authentic Szechuan cuisine but it's authentic American cuisine. Pronouncing the eth's might not be authentic Early Modern English but it's authentic Modern English. It's how "I know that my redeemer liveth," is intended to be sung.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Why exactly would we care how someone reads the KJV?

    And why are the tenses different from the DR books?
    "And it hath served men for fuel: he took thereof, and warmed himself: and he kindled it, and baked bread: but of the rest he made a god, and adored it: he made a graven thing, and bowed down before it."
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    The Douai used the Vulgate, which I believe is based on the Septuagint but the KJV used the Masoretic text if the Septuagint and Masoretic texts disagreed.
  • BGP
    Posts: 219
    I'm not sure why your posting this here but as someone who grew up on the KJV I'm going to chime in.

    "Yeah, I’ve got news for you. In 1611, all those –eths were pronounced -s… just like we do." I have no idea about that. It very well may be true.

    However this "pronouncing every –eth ... pronouncing it the way no KJV reader ever did."
    The KJV is still very, very much in use (by, I have no idea of the numbers perhaps millions), it is read by people with British, Scottish, various southern US, New England, Midwestern etc. accents, and most people read it as written. So most KJV readers at least for the last century or two have pronounced 'eth'. Very few people who use the KJ are trying to read it in period appropriate accents and attempting to do so seems silly to me.

    (which is causing me to think about chant interpretation approaches)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    Yeah, I’ve got news for you. In 1611, all those –eths were pronounced -s…


    Um, no. in 1611, English was spelled (mostly) phonetically. If it ended in eth, it was pronounced eth.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    The r-r-rain in Spain...
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Perhaps it was a Spanish influence from Mary I's King-Consort, Philip II?
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I thought the eth carried over from the "thorn" in Middle and Old English which was pronounced with the "th" sound. Did it definitely change by the time of KJV? How do we know?
  • Carolus16
    Posts: 20
    The Douai used the Vulgate, which I believe is based on the Septuagint but the KJV used the Masoretic text if the Septuagint and Masoretic texts disagreed.


    Actually, except for the Psalter, the Vulgate protocanon was based on the Hebrew. A fun fact since it's his feast day: Jerome's preference for the Hebrew over the Greek apparently caused some consternation, as can be seen in his correspondence with St. Augustine discussing the type of plant found in chapter four of the Book of Jonah (http://newadvent.org/fathers/1102075.htm).
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    St Jerome: patron saint of polyglots everywhere..... and therefore patron saint of very few Americans. (Reference an old joke from foreign language teacher conferences: "What do you call a person who speaks 3 languages? Trilingual; What about someone who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual; And only 1 language? American.")
    Thanked by 2tomjaw eft94530
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    The Gallican psalter made from the Greek is the Vulgate’s psalter, even though Jerome did three translations, one of which being from the Hebrew.
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Why exactly would we care how someone reads the KJV?

    What an astonishingly adolescent question!
    I continue to read the KJV (more accurately known as 'The Authorised Version') daily. When I don't read the AV I read Douai-Rheims. What both of these may or may not lack in (subjectively) accurate translation of (subjectively chosen) source they more than make up for in beauty, which should always be a mark of holy writ. Further, of the two, I hold the AV to be somewhat more beautiful in grace of cadence and verbal expression: and, concerning the psalter, the Coverdale is quite superior to the AV or the D-R - or any other. This forum is one of the last places whereat I would expect to hear the 'we don't tawk thait way no mowerr' sort of attitude.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    What an astonishingly adolescent question!

    I disagree, but I'm sure that's obvious. How one personally reads their Protestant versions, or Catholic versions for that matter, I think really doesn't matter to the way we pronounce much of our sung sacred music, especially since the English (if written by someone who cared where their syllables landed) is almost phonetically written, anyway, sometimes very much in ways that nobody would ever pronounce it.
    It's like telling a singer that "that's not how French is spoken." We know that to be true, but what bearing does that really have on it?

    If you want to find a very beautiful translation, that isn't Protestant or oddly revised, this is a really great copy to have: http://www.realdouayrheims.com/
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Translating the Psalter is difficult. One uses more earthy images if translating the Hebrew: God is our rock and our foundation, whereas in the Greek and the first Latin editions translated from Greek he is our refuge and our strength. This is true of other parts of the OT. Ratzinger speaks of the Book of Isaiah in particular. But I find it to be more pronounced in the psalter given its frequent usage, its need to be memorable, and its need to be singable. It also annoys me to know end when it differs from what I know: Coverdale is lovely, but I miss “Judge me...” in Ps. 42. I realize, however, “Give sentence...” is synonymous and is smoother for singing.

    I also think that what is phonetic spelling to one generation is not to another with sounds shfting and with spelling changes. The Globe Theater in London uses the best scholarship to use as close to original pronunciation as possible, but it isn’t obvious, first due to the spelling and two due to the meter. If it is not in iambic pentameter, it is tricky to determine pronunciation and the Bard is inconsistent. I would think that in 1611 they were not as consistent as we want them to be...
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn CharlesW CHGiffen MichaelDickson
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Just remember this when working with and applying theories:

    The theory tendeth to come after the practice.

    There be exceptions to most rules.
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    I would think that in 1611 they were not as consistent as we want them to be...


    Indeed. Consider the wide variation in pronunciation across the English-speaking world even today, when the forces that push towards uniformity are much greater than they were in the 17th century.

    My maternal grandmother grew up in Alabama and the Florida panhandle (which is part of Alabama...). She easily could double the number of 'dictionary' syllables in any word. My paternal grandfather grew up in central Alaska. Put them in the same room and you'd think that they might be speaking two different languages.

    (Right now, where I am (Columbia, SC), everybody is saying the same thing in more or less the same exasperated tone: "Please stop raining." If you have a moment to say a quick prayer for some of the people here in dire straights, I'm sure it would be appreciated. I just got back from a shift of volunteer work and saw many people who were already not well off now desperate and simply in shock.)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    (Right now, where I am (Columbia, SC), everybody is saying the same thing in more or less the same exasperated tone: "Please stop raining." If you have a moment to say a quick prayer for some of the people here in dire straights, I'm sure it would be appreciated. I just got back from a shift of volunteer work and saw many people who were already not well off now desperate and simply in shock.)


    I have, of course, wondered how some of our folks are doing in Columbia and Charleston. The videos on the Weather Channel look really bad. Keep us posted, and prayers for all of you.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Amen CW. Pray also that God may bless California with whatever rainfall my Carolina cousins would rather not befall them.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    So all those anthems of the period that take into account the pronunciation of the "eth"s are incorrect?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    Pray also that God may bless California with whatever rainfall my Carolina cousins would rather not befall them.


    Yes indeed! They are welcome to it!

    It should have occurred to me that I might have hijacked this thread. My apologies to Liam. Last update -- yes, things are bad here, and getting worse. Columbia is hilly, so those on high ground (including me), while lacking running water (except for the river in my yard...), are otherwise fine. Those in low ground are not fine. The National Guard is now evacuating parts of the city. Choir members are looking out for one another, and that gesture is nice.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    The interesting thing about the historic Douay-Rheims version (which was updated by Bishop Challoner) is that at its time it was in a slightly more vernacular style, with more Anglo-Saxon words than the King James version, which aimed at a more literary style with more Latinate words. But since then, the KJV became the norm and its usages became standard English, while many of the words of the Douay-Rheims fell out of use. The original Douay-Rheims version is very interesting, and in some ways surprisingly different from the Challoner revision.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Fascinating commentary, Dr Mahrt! It would never have occurred to me that the D-R was more Anglo-Saxon, though it has always seemed to me to lack the grace and cadence of the KJV. Perhaps this is why - though I would hate to impute a lack of beauty to the most excellent Anglo-Saxon tongue. Where can one obtain 'the original' D-W?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=578359

    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Oh great (not!). It requires a free registration, but I get the message that the registration has been disabled by the administrator.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Not to spam (by posting the same thing twice), but I do very much like this one: http://www.realdouayrheims.com/

    I don't especially like the odd use of the word "Even" in the KJV, or the way that they sometimes chose to translate the word Paraclete," which is much better than to just replace it with "advocate" or "Comforter" (ex. If Ye Love Me by Tallis - I really can't stand the text to that piece, as it both adds "even" and uses "comforter").
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Instead of getting out a credit card you can always go to Gallica or Google books for a pre-Challoner facsimile.
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