• JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/pope-francis-to-release-pop-rock-album-wake-up-20150925?utm_source=Microsoft

    After listening to dignified OF liturgies with splendid hymns and lovely chanted ordinaries the last few days, I'm finding it difficult to process the sample track, "Wake up! Go!Go! Forward!" on the soon-to-be-released papal pop-rock album entitled "Wake Up!"

    Wading through the corny introduction was painful enough since it's surreal to go from wailing metal guitar to semi-classical trumpet fanfare in the space of a few seconds, but listening to the weird disembodied metallic voice of the Pope shouting, "Wake up!" accompanied by a cheap synthesizer background almost did me in.

    However, that wasn't the worst of it, so brace yourselves, all ye chant scholars, for the world premiere of a Gregorian chant antiphon in a raw, heavy metal setting.

    I sat in utter shock to hear the Latin words of the antiphon for the Office of the Dead, Ego sum resurrectio et vita belted out to a heavy rock accompaniment, with little grace and zero sensitivity.

    ************************************************************

    While I have applauded what I believe is the beginning of a process of "mutual enrichment" in the papal liturgies the last few days, where, unless I'm mistaken, the stabilizing, reverential influence of the EF has been seen and felt in the OF, all my sensibilities and my whole being is repelled by this track on the new papal CD. I can't help but describe it as a violent and obscene mixing and matching of musical genres and cultures: a deliberate, brutal, head-on collision between the sacred and the profane. It is crass and boorish, a musical nightmare and the worst example of cognitive and spiritual dissonance I have ever seen, and that's to put it mildly.
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    OMW, I heard someone mention that and thought it was an item from the Onion, or Eye of the Tiber.
    Well... don't we live in interesting times, as the old Chinese curse is said to wish on one?
    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I hope it's just an elaborate hoax. That would make me feel much better.
  • They claim to have performed the same "service" for the two previous popes. I think I may have heard fleeting clips from both of them on news broadcasts, but don't recall any effect I detected, on anything.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    all my sensibilities and my whole being is repelled by this track on the new papal CD.


    Ah, dear Julie. Obviously you are not old enough to remember masses by rock groups of the 60s. They came and went, just like this latest incarnation will do.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I can't recommend anyone watch The Sopranos, but listening to that reminded me of when Chris' girlfriend was trying to desperately trying to plug the lousy band Visiting Day to a talented producer who only humored her out of lust.

    Really. About two minutes in I was waiting for someone to go "Meow."

    I just hope someone has the courage to say to the powers behind this that "Well, i think you should mentally prepare for the f%&$#* possibility that Wake Up! sucks."
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I just hope someone has the courage to say the powers behind this that "Well, i think you should mentally prepare for the f%&$#* possibility that Wake Up! sucks."


    Let's say they have potential. Potential means they could do something worthwhile with enough work and effort, but they currently suck.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Giving the Pope the benefit of the doubt, that soundcloud track sounds like it is a superimposed speech of the Pope (or a vocal immitator) on top of studio tracks. I am not even sure the pope is aware of such a project such as this. If anything, I think the media (and Rolling Stone is one of the big ones) is trying to create a draw if nothing else.
  • Reval
    Posts: 186
    Does the title remind anyone else of the Wham! song from the 1980s? Or is it my age showing? : )
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I don't plan to program "Wake Up!" in my alarm clock, ever!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Genuine glam rock coming from Italy is weirdly complimentary to Bartolucci-inspired polyphony choral technique. Where's Morricone when you need him?
    That bVI-bVII-Im riff is bathetic, and then to add out of tune shred guitar leads playing ascending scales that don't even match the riff, then a Farfisa simulacrum (just for you, Jackson!), please, mommy, make the bad men go away!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    Thank you very much for sharing. It's phenomenally bad! I love it, especially the "Ego sum resurrectio et vita."

    "et oh - omnis!"
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Yes, it is the (papally approved) bastardized chant that sticks out above the rest.

    Francis, this is an official Vatican project.

    I imagine this is the latest form of "mutual enrichment"? Introducing the newest genre of sacred music: Acid Chant.

    It makes you wonder why we ever made a fuss over organ-accompanied chant.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    (papally approved)

    For heaven's sake, Julie! You think Pope Francis is such a micro-manager that he approves CD projects?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    YES!
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Well, then, I have for sale a bridge located in your area.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    From UPI:The Vatican approved LP, is a collaboration between the pope and music label Believe Digital.


    If not approved personally by him, it was approved by his appointees. I'm afraid he owns it. It's his Curia, his Vatican, his pontificate, his administration, his policies, his agenda.

    But then again, the papal liturgies in the U.S. are his, too, and they were, for the most part very admirable. Go figure.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Maybe it's the trying to be all things to all people syndrome. Only problem is, some of those things to some people are definitely not things to some other people.

    YMMV
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Of course Fr. Krisman is right: the Pope doesn't personally manage all the uses of his words. Libreria Editrice Vaticana "owns" and manages the rights to his writings and Vatican Radio does the same for recordings.

    The idea that this is a "Vatican-approved CD" (in the words of the Rolling Stone writer) probably means nothing more than that the producers got permission to use the Pope's words from VR and LEV. Even if some bureaucrat signed off on the CD before publication (and I have seen no information that such is the case), that still would not make it an "official Vatican project"; after all, this is being published by some private company, not by an organ of the Holy See.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • '...a bridge located in your area.'

    Um, how much is it?
  • Believe me, I can offer you a much nicer, authentic, old Irish bridge at a much better price, steeped in history and folklore... Let the bidding war begin...
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Would it be a Bridge Across Troubled Waters?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Perhaps it is A Bridge Too Far?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Bridge on the River Why?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    image

    How about the Bridge to Nowhere?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Or, The Bridge of San Luis Rey.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    May the Lord bestow wisdom and prudence on our beloved Pontifex who is determined to build bridges out to the peripheries and neglected constituencies.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Silence Frenzied... oh wait, wrong thread.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoS0eKC-XoQ


    (This unofficial, amateur effort is — I think — much better.)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Is this hip hop?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Oh Don't worry about this. I recall many other such "official" things foisted upon Jp2 such as soap (the pope on a rope with soap) with his picture on it, many recordings of his voice manipulated in many ways etc...it will all pass. In Paradisum will remain.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Perhaps I love you more ----SCREAM!!!---- LOL! This is just ridiculous...
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I don't see too much of a problem with setting a Pope's words to contemporary music. It's eclectic and fun and thought-provoking to some extent, because after all, these are the words of a human being and are of value but aren't on the same level as the words of Christ and the chanted prayer of the Church.

    The last few minutes of the Wake Up! track are what offended me most. Taking what is one of our holiest possessions, Gregorian chant, and fusing it with the lowest human expression of all---heavy rock (cf. the NY Times) demonstrates an extrordinary obtuseness. A little creativity would be fine---accompanying chant with classical guitar or the flute---and that would be fine since you're using musical genres of similar value.

    However, attempting to fuse a Gregorian antiphon with heavy rock is like installing Michaelangelo's Pieta in a Hooter's restaurant. You're taking something of profound spiritual, intellectual and aesthetic value and trying to harmonize it with the music which glorified free sex, drugs and the social revolution of the 60's and 70's.

    This "Acid Chant" (for lack of a better term) reflects a tendency in the Church now to fuse different doctrines, sensibilities, and cultures and attempt to place them all on the same plane, just as we saw the syncretism on display at Ground Zero the other day. Not for nothing, and it pains me to say this---and I don't mean to sound like a nooge---but after the emergence of ISIS, I've come to a new understanding of the term "false religions." Ideas and creeds have consequences (remember that old maxim lex orandi, lex credendi?) Speaking entirely for myself, I would be very uncomfortable praying to the Triune God of Divine Revelation in the presence of those who were simultaneously praying to their gods. I don't mean to criticize and think enormous efforts were made to legitimize the proceedings and spread good will, and maybe it was all fine, but it just struck me as a futile (and probably harmful) attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Well, Julie, if we had just had good leadership. I was here in the 60s when a warm and fuzzy old pope wanted to open the windows of the church, and instead invited in every conceivable error. No surprise, since a wiser pope who preceded him had called him down for his modernistic tendencies once before. This was followed by a naïve fool who systematically went about destroying as much as possible, and in the process created a greater loss of faith than Luther. Then we had a pope who gallivanted around the world while the church burned. So what did the church do? It canonized or raised them to the ranks of blessed or saints. Crazy, and a sure indicator the church has effectively lost its mind. I had great hopes for needed correction with Benedict XVI, but he was too aged and not strong enough to see it through. Now, God only knows. I haven't figured out the current pope and can't decide whether he is a good thing, or will ultimately be bad for the future of the church. I put the whole thing in God's hands, because He is likely the only one who can figure any of it out.
    Thanked by 2francis JulieColl
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Julie

    Would you feel that way about praying with Mormons? Because their theology about the nature of God and man is even further, at its core, from Catholicism than Islam, while of course they are closer to Catholics in many aspects moral practice and culture. There's a reason that Islam was treated as a (extreme) heresy of Christianity in the Middle Ages, rather than a religion like, say, Hinduistic ones - wrong ideas about the right God, rather than wrong ideas about non-gods.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Meh sez I. And Meloche, please finish your sentences. For me and mine, we'll take one each of the Bridges, Lloyd, Beau and Jeff, thank you.
    I'm here all week.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks for the excellent advice, Charles. It helps a great deal.

    Liam, thanks for the clarification on Islam. I think what you said about the Mormons may also apply to Jehovah Witnesses. I admire ecumenical outreach; I just get confused when they pray together, or, more accurately, when they pray in each others' presence. I'd be very uneasy about being in the same room where fervent invocations to Lord Shiva, The Supreme Buddha or the "All-merciful Allah" were being made, but that's just me.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with different seeds, lest both the seed that thou hast sown and the fruit of the vineyard be sanctified together. (Deut 22:9);

    No one shall pray in common with heretics and schismatics. (Council of Laodicea)


    We decree that those who give credence to the teachings of the heretics, as well as those who receive, defend or patronize them, are excommunicated. [...] If anyone refuses to avoid such accomplices after they have been ostracized by the Church, let them also be excommunicated. (IV Lateran Council)

    If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meeting-houses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be excommunicated. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be excommunicated (II Council of Constantinople)

    Julie, I think this topic has been handled by competent authorities long before we were born.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl francis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Properly conducted interfaith services have separate prayers, one at a time. The norm of not praying with non-Christians is thereby preserved.

    Prayer with non-Catholic Christians is regulated by the Church's norms on ecumenical activity.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Properly conducted interfaith services have separate prayers, one at a time. The norm of not praying with non-Christians is thereby preserved.

    Prayer with non-Catholic Christians is regulated by the Church's norms on ecumenical activity.


    That all sounds very Jesuitical. LOL.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CharlesW: masses by rock groups of the 60s

    Julie knows.
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/11978
    has her super Groovy link ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbWSu0yZMDU
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Hat tip to Fr. Longenecker's blog for resurrecting that . . . umm, er, uh . . . thing. : )
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    CharlesW: So what did the church do? It canonized or raised

    If you die in the state of grace you are admitted to Heaven.
    Canonization merely declares what God has done.
    It has nothing to do with any of the crap anyone might have done before then.
    Many want it to mean a blanket approval of every act of the canonized.
    But that is not what it means.

    I thought I was long ago taught canonization was about Heroic Virtue.
    Maybe we need to talk more about Virtue.
    And why some virtuous act by somebody is Heroic.

    Yes we need more saints (everybody!).
    But maybe we need fewer canonized saints (i.e., slow the process)?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    bonniebede: Let the bidding war begin...

    Only after you show your bridge pic.

    Then if I win I can do this ...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Havasu_City,_Arizona
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Yes we need more saints (everybody!).
    But maybe we need fewer canonized saints (i.e., slow the process)?


    I agree. The process has more credibility with the slower process.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Properly conducted interfaith services have separate prayers, one at a time. The norm of not praying with non-Christians is thereby preserved.
    With all undue respect to the false gods, I don't agree with this one iota, nor does the patrimony of our fathers.

    "For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens." Psalm 96 (95):5

    My thoughts are really right in line with JulieColl. Syncretism abounds (remember Assisi?).

    Benedict was strong enough, Charles, but his enemies are legion, and they press in from every side.

    "Fight, children of light, you, the few who can see. For now is the time of all times, the end of all ends." Our Lady of La Salette
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Here is another announcement of a recording from Vatican City, and this one deserves to be called an official Vatican project:
    http://www.visnews-en.blogspot.com/2015/09/cantate-domino-music-of-popes-recorded.html
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    An example of a creative, respectful application of Gregorian chant:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWdSi0Xw4u0
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Where are the praises? Where are the bouquets?

    A few days ago people were blowing their stack over the Pope Francis spoken-word-with-pop-music recording.

    One Catholic writer reacted on Facebook with one contemptuous word: "Sick." A non-Catholic musician heard a Gregorian proper text sung over some drab rock music, and wrote to me to call it "satanic". Other people insisted that the Pope was personally responsible for this supposed Vatican project made by some Italian record producer.

    But now that there is a worthy project coming out of the Holy See, why is there so little response? This time it's a project by a real Vatican institution, the Sistine Chapel Choir, presenting Renaissance sacred music and Gregorian chant, with an endorsement by (no less than) the prefect of the papal household. Following the critics' logic, shouldn't they be praising Pope Francis for personally fostering this admirable work?

    The thing that is really a bit sickly is this: some fine Catholics are so dispirited about the Pope that they overreact to minor imperfections and they jump to ridiculous conclusions. It's time to stop and become a little more clear-headed about things.