Making an English "Les Heures Gregoriennes"
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Hello all,

    I'm looking at compiling a Latin/English side by side version of Les Heures Gregoriennes, or something of that ilk (I may start with just Lauds and Vespers), and I have the possibility of a stipend from my College's Honors Program to help me. I have a couple questions I was hoping to run by you all.

    Firstly, if I'm to compile this for the use of all the faithful, should I follow the Ordo Cantus Officii when LHG deviates from it?

    Secondly, how do other Liturgical books fall into this, such as the new, three volume Antiphonale Monasticum? Can antiphons that have been updated in those be used in place of older versions in the 1934 AM referenced in OCO?

    Thirdly, how do I go about securing copyright stuffs, so I'm not stealing from Solesmes? Do I just need to contact them?

    I may think of others as I go, and I'd love to hear your thoughts or advice on this project.

    Many thanks and God Bless!
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 674
    should I follow the Ordo Cantus Officii when LHG deviates from it?

    We know that the Ordo Cantus Officii was amended in 2009, but an editio typica altera has still not been published (see this letter). The new Antiphonale Romanum has, however, implemented the revisions. Also, the scheme of chants in Les Heures is simplified, repeating often the antiphons of Lauds at Vespers. So, I would follow OCO, except for Sunday Vespers and Lauds, where I would follow AR II.

    Can antiphons that have been updated in those be used in place of older versions in the 1934 AM referenced in OCO?

    Yes, I would do that (actually I did already, see my website Liturgia Horarum in cantu gregoriano). They're basically the same antiphons, but in a new, improved reading.

    how do I go about securing copyright stuffs, so I'm not stealing from Solesmes? Do I just need to contact them?

    That's something you could do. Les Heures was also published in close collaboration with Solesmes. All engravings are theirs.
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Thank you so much, van Roode! For Sunday Lauds, what should follow the ARII? Is it that the Benedictus antiphon should be the same as First or Second Vespers?
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 674
    Ah, sorry, AR II is only for Sunday Vespers, not for Lauds. Benedictus antiphon is given in OCO.
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Do you think it's important to get the reprinted Processionale Monasticum "with neums added to several pieces from the Hartker Antiphoner", because of those added neums, or will the online scan and Antiphonali Monasticum cover any changes?
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 674
    The added neumes in the PM will not change the melody you can copy, for they are adiastemic neumes written above the stave. It's similar to the Graduale Triplex.

    For the most recent interpretations of chants referred to in OCO, the Antiphonale Monasticum (I-III) and Antiphonale Romanum are the best sources.
  • I would have thought the starting point would be to go through the Communaute St Martin, who produced the original, and will not only have the original in electronic format (or know where it is), but will have encountered - and resolved all the copyright - and doubtess many other problems.

    I seem to recall that at one stage, an English version was mooted, but it fell down because there were so many different translations of the psalms into English, and people could not agree which to use.
  • And... a new Ordo Cantus Officii will be available in November 2015! See the website of the Libreria Editrice Vaticana.
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  • Praised be Jesus Christ! This is such glorious news! Now I don't have to worry about my project needing such immanent revision!
  • A problem you are likely to have, which seems to be unique to the English language, is that there are so many different translations, and other options and bits and pieces, with vociferous proponents of each, that all one ends up with is a long argument, but no actual result.

    Many excellent works have also foundered on Copyright issues. You may need to go for what you can easily get Copyright for, in the knowledge that, whatever you choose, some people will support you, and others will not. As always, "climbing on the shoulders of giants" like St. Martin Communauté is likely to be a good start.
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  • I will take that into account and contact them. Thank you.
  • Steven, do you think this will be accompanied by Solesmes publication of new chant books containing new melodies referenced in the new OCO, or will they be referenced from the new Antiphonale Monasticum and pre-existing books?

    Also, where will I be able to buy the new OCO from?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,396
    Booksellers in Rome offering LEV books are listed here:
    http://www.libreriaeditricevaticana.va/content/libreriaeditricevaticana/it/contatti.html

    The new OCO is scheduled to come out on November 10, so any ordering now is pre-ordering.
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  • Let us first see what will be in the new OCO. The 1983 edition had 172 pages, the editio typica altera will have 398. That's quite a difference...
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,281
    The 1983 edition had 172 pages, the editio typica altera will have 398. That's quite a difference...


    image
  • image

    Except that it took 32 years.
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  • What mysteries might be contained in those 226 more pages?

    Now I'm wondering if I should return all the AM I bought… >_<
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • I don't know the answers to those questions, but it's real! And the title page looks nice. http://www.praytellblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/OCO-2015-2-Frontispizio.jpg
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,543
    What mysteries might be contained in those 226 more pages?

    Ostrowski's graphics?
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    So I finally heard back from Solesmes, and I'm not really sure what to make of it.

    Dear Skyler Neberman,

    Solesmes has the project to make a Latin-English book for services, but later. Rome indeed asked Solesmes to publish the liturgical books in Gregorian chant. Recently we have published th Liber cantualis en latin-english. The Heures grégoriennes have been published without the authorisation of Solesmes.
    Very sorry, but Solesmes has worked many many years, Solesmes has necessarily rights. I hope that you understand.

    Best regards

    Fr. Patrick HALA, osb Solesmes


    Les Heures Gregoriènnes was published without Solesmes' approval? This throws the copyright question on its head. So if I go ahead and publish an LHG type book without Solesmes' approval, I'd be doing the same as the Communauté Saint Martin?

    I understand that they're planning to make a Latin-English book, but how long from now? 5 years? 32?

    I'm not willing to give up on this project yet, but this is very confusing. Perhaps I should just wait to hear back from the Communauté. Any thoughts? Are there any other Church offices I should contact?
  • I would say do it and apologise later
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Haha!
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    My Theology Professor said, "Later could mean a special 100th anniversary of Sacrosanctum Concilium edition, for all we know."
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  • I think many liturgical chant projects have ground to a halt at Solesmes because Dom Saulnier has left. I heard rumours though that things will start up again. The logical thing would be to wait for the AR series to finish but I suspect that may be, umm, a while. I'm not sure what to make of Dom Hala's message. I suspect it's a "English is not my first language issue". I was under the impression that Solesmes and St. Martin collaborated on LHG. I suspect he really meant that the Heures was not published by Solesmes and is therefore out of his control. Or perhaps the new publisher of the 2nd Edition did not get their permission...

    In my case the situation is easy. Since my mother tongue is French, I use LHG; my practice is to chant the psalm in Latin, then silent pause to read it through in French. I also have AR II and AM I-III and I use them to supplement LHG especially when the same gospel canticle antiphon is repeated two or three times on a Sunday or other feasts. Since the books have a Concordat cum originali in them... that's good enough for me.

    Ora
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    It might be a while and even then, it's not all in the same book. Yeah, I get that impression too. I sent an earlier email in French, but because I didn't get a response, I thought maybe my French was too rusty and less comprehensible than if I just used my mother tongue >_< Even if I create a book with just Lauds and Vespers, that's maybe one book instead of 4+ (Sunday Vespers, Sunday Lauds, at least one volume each of Ferial Lauds and Vespers). I was under the impression of Solesmes' collaboration on LHG too, which leaves me utterly perplexed.

    That's the situation I'd like to the English speaking world to be in too. And heck, once I have everything in place, I could work with a native speaker to set the translated parts to any language. Isn't Pope Francis pushing for a more subsidiarian Church? Wouldn't allowing individuals to create resources to enable the singing of the office fall under that?
    500 x 436 - 204K
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    I'm considering sending something resembling the following letter to the CDW, thoughts?

    Dear Fathers in Christ,

    My name is Skyler Neberman and I am a student of Theology and Philosophy at Benedictine College. I am looking to create a Latin-English Antiphonal for the Liturgy of the Hours similar to what the Community of St. Martin created in Les Heures Grégoriennes. I heard that the Congregation for Divine Worship encouraged the Community in creating that book, and I wanted to humbly ask for you help in my endeavor. I know that the Vatican has given Solesmes the duty of publishing books of Gregorian chant for the Church, do they have copyright ownership of those chants, or are the chants appearing in books such as the Antiphonale Romanum II the property of the greater Church? Essentially, I would like to know if there are any copyright issues that must be resolved in order to make use of all the chants prescribed by the Ordo Cantus Officii, or the texts of the Nova Vulgata.
    Also, I would like to humbly ask if there is any other pertinent information or advice you have for me in undertaking this project.

    My gracious thanks,
    Skyler Neberman
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,224
    That’s overly complex as far as the writing goes. I’m not sure the CDW would understand the question nor have the ability to answer it. There is the issue of Solesmes creating melodies (well, editing them), the Vatican printing them, and then Solesmes reprinting them with its markings. Others take Solesmes chants and further edit them based on the Triplex and other ancient manuscripts but without fundamentally altering it. The relationship between the Vatican and Solesmes is also less clear nowadays.

    I believe the NV Bible copyright is held by the Holy See.
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    It's a late, tired first draft, so it can be worked out :P

    I understand the relationship is complex, but somehow the CDW was involved in the creation of LHG, so it seems they know something, or can maybe point me in the right direction.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,281
    If you can't get a straight answer about how to get permissions, do you think they have the organizational ability (and will) to sue you for infringement?
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Maybe not, but is it ethical to infringe their property even if they can't sue me?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,281
    That depends on your view of intellectual "property," I suppose.
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    True. Since the CDW did approve LHG, it might just be that they told Solesmes to share or something like that. There must be a reason why LHG was able to be published with CDW approval using Solesmes' chant engravings.

    If this was for private use, that'd be one thing, but I do intend to publish, so I want to do things right. Dubious intellectual property use would probably also counteract the beneficial appearance of this project on my graduate school applications…
  • Marcel
    Posts: 11
    It might be an idea to use the antiphons published by the Calithes site. They are more qualified from musical point of view, and free of copy rights.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 125
    For the English, I'm thinking it depends on the use you plan to make of the English translations. If the intent of the books is to pray in Latin but use the English solely to aid comprehension, the English side doesn't need to be "Official" for one's bishop's conference. If the plan is to use it liturgically then there's a problem. LHG uses the French liturgical translation of the psalms, the readings, and the collects. Curiously, where an official translation of a collect doesn't exist, they came up with their own rather than use what Liturgie des Heures uses.

    The point is the French side is official and pointed, so it can be use to pray the psalmody in French with the Gregorian antiphon. It even proposes French tones on the Gregorian modes to do so... and not particularly nice ones IMHO. So when I use LHG, I do all the psalmody in Latin but take a pause at the end and read the psalm silently in French. I do the readings, intercessions, and collect in French, everything else in Latin.

    I think because of the English translation issue you'd have to stick to one translation. It would probably liturgical for some areas, not for others, in which case it is just a comprehension aid and not intended to be prayed.

    The one gospel canticle antiphon for all 3 major Sunday hours is also the case in Liturgie des Heures (French Liturgy of the Hours) which is probably why LHG went that route.

    For those who also have AR II and pray LHG, the antiphon for First Vespers in AR II is also the Lauds antiphon in the AM. Traditionally 1st Vespers used the Lauds antiphon for the Gospel canticle. AM also has the option to use biblical antiphons that correspond to the first reading of Vigils for both the 1 and 2 year lectionaries. So if you have both AR II and LHG, you've got the issue of repeating antiphons covered.

    These sorts of projects are never simple. I set out to make myself a Nocturnale Romanum for the current Liturgy of the Hours for personal use, using OCO, Latin only; I use my French Liturgie des Heures as comprehension aid . It took me approximately a year's worth of spare time to come up with a usable beta version. Now I need to find some time to correct all the minor mistakes I found (mostly formatting issues).

    Ora
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Any through composed chant such as the antiphonal would not have translations intended for singing, just comprehension, on the other hand, I would like the psalms, hymns, prayers, collects and anything set to a formulaic chant to be singable in both languages. This means I do need to work out licensing for those parts. I'm not immensely concerned with that aspect though, I'm more concerned with licensing the music from Solesmes. Ideally I'd like to be able to use the engravings from Solesmes, since to point them myself would be obscenely time consuming. I'd really only have to engrave the English hymns myself.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 125
    There is no pointing of the psalms and canticles in Les Heures Grégoriennes. Only in Antiphonale Romanum II

    And I think that's a good thing. To me, learning the formulae for the chanting of the psalms in Latin is an essential Gregorian skill for the serious scholar. Pointing means you never have to learn. But someone has to learn it to be able to point psalms for various occasions; I am the one that does it in our schola. Also anybody buying LHG would be, I think either a religious community, a resource person in a schola/choir, or someone really serious about chanting the Office. Hence I think it is a good thing that it not be pointed.

    I can understand the advantages of pointing for choirs that only chant the Office occasionally as is the case with our schola. But since our schola can't afford either Les Heures or AR II for everyone, I make our own music sheets for the Office and I point the psalms myself (much less daunting when you only have two psalms and two canticles to point rather than the whole psalter plus the seasonal and sanctoral differences!).

    Ora
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    I'm sure there'll be other opportunities to learn pointing. My purpose is to make the authentic signing of the office as accessible as is possible.

    I'm hoping that I can work out a system that allows people to pay a set amount or subscription to print small PDFs for certain Sundays or Feasts, to make the music available to whole congregations for less.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 125
    I'm sure there'll be other opportunities to learn pointing. My purpose is to make the authentic signing of the office as accessible as is possible.


    That's fine, it depends on the use and certainly for what you're planning pointing makes sense, but you'll have to point them yourself as the psalms are *not* pointed in the current LHG (both editions). On the other hand they *are* pointed in Antiphonale Romanum II. But that's only helpful for Vespers of Sundays, feasts and solemnities.

    Ora
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  • wjcb112
    Posts: 17
    I wonder what has actually happened to this useful project? My feeling from the lack of recent posts is that it has stopped. If this is so, have you considered using one of the Office Books from Munsterschwarzach Abbey as a basis? They have produced a useful series of Office books with Gregorian Chant in German (for all the German speaking countries). Producing the equivalent - say the Midday Office book only - in English would be a much simpler and shorter project, and would be a very useful first stage.
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Hey! I'm really glad to see your interest. The project hit a bit of a wall after some unhelpful exchanges with Solesmes and a lack of response from the Community of St. Martin regarding using their settings of the chants. Basically, Solesmes denied involvement with Les Heures Gregoriennes, despite the fact that it clearly contains Solesmes' chant settings and font, so that leaves hand pointing all of the antiphons, which is an incredibly time-consuming process in addition to the already highly time-consuming process of designing and assembling such a book. I've also been extremely busy between finishing my Bachelor's and beginning Graduate studies and getting married, as well as pursuing other projects pertaining to restoring Mass Propers.

    That said, I'm intending to eventually produce a series of booklets for the Office in English and Latin, beginning with Compline, and then probably continuing with Vespers for Sundays and Feasts, and eventually Lauds-Matins. My hope is that they will be digitally available, but in what capacity, given legal questions related to translations and so-forth, is something that will have to be determined.

    I'd love to look into the books you're talking about, if you can send me some links.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,396
    We should talk. Producing any office book is a highly time-consuming process, so I wouldn't be put off by that. :-)
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  • OraLabora
    Posts: 125
    Preparing a liturgy book is like a home plumbing repair job. It ends up being more complicated than it first appeared.

    A couple of years ago I decided to assemble my own Nocturnale Romanum to sing the Office of Readings of the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin chant, using Ordo Cantus Officii as reference for selecting the antiphons. It looked pretty easy at first, but ended up taking well over a year to complete. I don't use it often as I usually do the OOR or Vigils recto-tono, and I don't always use the LOTH but sometimes the monastic schema of the abbey I'm attached to, but every time I do use it I find minor issues, typos, etc. So it needs revision, and at the same time I might as well throw in the hymns as I rely on Liber Hymnarius for the hymns. But if I add them, I'm going to have to split it into two or 3 volumes (I use a compact binder to hold the pages).

    I'm not sure of the extent of Solesmes's involvement in LHG. There are some weirdnesses in LHG, some inexplicable mode changes compared to the same antiphon in the Solesmes books. This week for example Ps. 47 morphed from a Ia2 (Solesmes) to a IVg (LHG). I don't know if those changes came from Solesmes, or were insisted upon by St. Martin. Another one is Ps. 32, morphed from IVe to IVg.

    Ora
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  • The mode changes you mention are between the Psalterium Monasticum (1982) and Les Heures Gregoriènnes (2008). It's possible that in the time between new insights have led to assigning different modes to certain antiphons.

    The mode of the antiphon Magnus dominus et was changed from Ia2 to IVg, which is possible: the Antiphonale Synopticum even gives three modes for this antiphon, IV, VIII and I. The change from IVe to IVg for Rectos decet seems fortunate: is makes it easier to pick up the antiphon after the last psalm verse.

    To see if these changes were made by the Communauté Saint-Martin or by Solesmes, you should compare with the more recent chant books of Solesmes, say, post 2000.

    It's certain, by the way, that the Atelier de paléographie musicale of Solesmes took care of parts of the LHG; these are mentioned as copyrighted material on the page with acknowledgements.
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    This webpage says that digital editions of the AM are available, with images of the chants, which can be licensed, so perhaps this is an option. I sent an email, so we'll see.

    http://palmus.free.fr/antiphonaire.html
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  • wjcb112
    Posts: 17
    If you want an English language Office Book, why not try the new Gregorian Chant Office Book from St Stephen's House, Oxford? It has over 100 hymns translated from the Latin (mainly first 8 centuries of the Christian era), all the psalter pointed and with Gregorian Chant, and many assorted Canticles and propers. Translation of psalms is traditional language - BCP based, but some of Coverdale's blips have been sorted out. It is however good quality hardback and with 5 ribbons, and not expensive. It is though Anglican-style format which will not satisfy people, but merits attention.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,396
    An Anglican-tradition plainchant psalter sounds like an admirable project. If you have a copy, feel free to post a photo or two. Catholics could certainly use it for devotional purposes, although clergy and others with a legal obligation to say the Office are required to use an edition with the official texts.
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 337
    Part of my goal is to make the use of at least some Latin more accessible for English speakers, but it does sound like an interesting resource. Please do post a link or share some more info.