One important question to ask when being interviewed.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    One important question to ask when being interviewed:

    If I find it necessary to replace the entire musical staff paid and unpaid, including cantors, if need be, are you going to stand behind my decision?

    That could help to weed out firmly entrenched has=the=ear=of=the=pastor types who can rip you to shreds, while being nice to your face, and convincing the pastor that you are adjacent him and everything he does...and he fires you.

    If he's got commitments to people that are "under you", that's a real red flag.

    The most difficult head secretary at a parish turned out to be working for free...and she had his ear.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    What if the response is "It depends on your reasons"?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    At least it's a response. It's important to know right away if there are any sacred cows working with or under you.

    In fact, I'd even come out and say that. Glad you brought it up.

    Do you agree?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    The church is filled with sacred cows. I think we must all be secret Hindus. OMMMMM!
    Thanked by 2SrEleanor Gavin
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Well, I'd love to ask: what sacred cows are untouchable here?

    If I could afford the self-selection out asking that question would be. A lot of musicians can't afford that if they are too rooted to transplant willy-nilly.

    Also understand, by asking that question, you pretty much are telling the pastor that you would no less expect him to treat *you* as a sacred cow, either...

    Those kinds of questions are best asked after getting an offer on the table, I should note.
    Thanked by 3Gavin Hildegard PaxMelodious
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I've helped about a dozen priests hire musicians and have been their counsel through the hiring process... if a priest told me someone asked them this early in the interview process, I'd probably tell him there are likely issues there.

    A question like Liam suggests in his first post and then several follow up questions depending on the answer would be in order.
    Thanked by 5CharlesW Adam Wood BruceL Heath Hildegard
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    if a priest told me someone asked them this early in the interview process, I'd probably tell him there are likely issues there.

    Yes...and also at his church was well. An organist who has been there through 4 music directors and is known to have the pastors ear and drives MDs away when she tires of them.

    Any priest that is foolish enough to go out on a limb and challenge the establishment of the church by hiring you or me to do Gregorian Chant and Propers has to have the guts to stand behind you.

    Caution also, when the associate is pressing for this...when he's gone to a deserved parish, many will turn on you and drive you out.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    It's very hard to judge people...ESPECIALLY clergy. You can have the nicest most considerate preist but when you start work you can find that he is a control freak and micromanager. I think it is very important to do a LOT Of TALking to staff who have worked or are work there presently. Try getting a feel if they like his style of communication and does that jive with yours?If they have
    Fears about talking to you, that might be rather indicitave. If the clergy can look up, call,and contact our refernces, why can't we ask about theirs? If a musician is leaving or has left, you MUST get ahold of him.and dicsuss why he or she left. You might save yourselk a lot of pain later. The person might just say I had a great time, I am leaving for a god reason (better job, family issues). Or not!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Oh you MUST ask the former organist what he she was paid...surprisingly,,the next person coming along after Marcel.Dupre is offered significantly less......





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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    If the Pastor mentions "progress" or "improvement" in any way, such as "improving the ministry" or "going in a forward direction" or "making progress," you MUST get him to clarify his definition of progress and improvement. For the last DM job I had, the priest mentioned "progress" and "improving" the music at the parish: what he meant was not what I thought "progress" and "improvement" were. I thought he wanted sacred music, and of course as soon as I found out how to implement that, I tried to improve things in that way. This is not at all what the priest was talking about. He only wanted congregational singing, which ironically, he already had. Sometimes, you have a situation where the Pastor wants quantity over quality.
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick melofluent
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    ClergetKubisz,

    In an entirely unrelated context, I've noted that some words have apparent meaning, which is different from intended meaning.

    "We want to progress our music ministry" -?? Progress isn't a verb, but even if it were, make progress toward what goal?

    "We're a tolerant and inclusive catholic community". Tolerant of what, exactly? Should tolerance mean "we'll promote the use of Gregorian chant"? Inclusive of what?

    "We're a Vatican II parish" Yuck. What exactly is such a thing? Is this a parish which allows no innovation unless the good of the faithful surely and certainly requires it? Is it a parish in which Latin has pride of place and Gregorian chant is used with great frequency? It's possible that this is true, but not likely.

    "You need to learn to compromise" -- usually means "Your opinion isn't worth anything". Can we compromise, and use only 40% Gregorian chant? Can we compromise, and use the pipe organ for 5 out of the 6 masses per weekend? Again, it's possible that these words allow for such an interpretation, but they don't usually do so.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Mike Shawaluk
    Posts: 58
     
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    What about PROGRESS?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    CGZ, you're absolutely right.

    "We're a Vatican II parish" Yuck. What exactly is such a thing? Is this a parish which allows no innovation unless the good of the faithful surely and certainly requires it? Is it a parish in which Latin has pride of place and Gregorian chant is used with great frequency?


    I particularly like the point you are making here. If that phrase (We're a Vatican II parish) is heard, the immediate question one should ask is absolutely this: "You mean Latin and Gregorian chant have pride of place in your parish, and are used frequently?" I think that would probably catch the priest off guard.
    Thanked by 1SarahJ
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles, Adam,

    It should be noted that even when "progress" is used as a verb, it can't be a transitive verb. A disease can progress, but to progress a music program does harm to the language.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    It's already in the OED as a transitive verb, with citations going back to 1875. It's pre-Conciliar, Chris!!!
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Mark,

    Next you'll tell me that it's post-Vatican 1, and that therefore I should be fine with it.

    Sorry. I'm not buying.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    It seems that the use of "progress" as a transitive verb might have originated with the East Pondelians. My sense is that, especially on this side of the Atlantic, that usage is unpleasant or irritating at best and hence generally deprecated. Here is an amusing article on the subject.

    http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/02/progressive-education.html
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Oh yes, yes! By all means 'deprecated'.
    And not 'generally', but universally!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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