Dismissing a choir member
  • henry
    Posts: 244
    I have two choir members who sing off key. One hardly comes to rehearsals or Masses, the other unfortunately does. Choir season is over. I'm thinking of privately telling each of them that I don't think choir is for them. Should I tell them now or or in September when I ask everyone to "sign-up" again?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Talk to your pastor and see if he has advice on the matter - that way if things blow up, he'll be on the same page in every step.

    I would suggest now, as it gives a few months for things to calm down before the choir starts up again.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Gavin
  • Steve QSteve Q
    Posts: 121
    I think now is better also. Perhaps when you talk to your pastor, you can come up with another ministry that those members may be more suited to such as lector, greeter, EMHC, catechist or whatever. The pastor may have an urgent need in one of those areas that your choir members could fill. Just a thought.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Mike Shawaluk
    Posts: 58
     
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,187
    This is assuming that everyone has to sing in tune. I know of church choirs which have tolerated a few such "supportive" members for years. Frankly even a whole section. When a church choir's role is understood as supporting the singing of the congregation there is no need for perfect intonation : just as the singing from the pews is not perfect.

    Perhaps there are workarounds? We had a bass once who always sang approximately one octave below pitch. Occasionally he was asked not to sing for a few bars, if it was a rehearsed passage in which the basses were particularly audible. But the choir sang at his funeral with affection and honour.
    Thanked by 2dhalkj Choirparts
  • Mike Shawaluk
    Posts: 58
     
  • Jacques PerrièreJacques Perrière
    Posts: 139
    No many ways. Only one.

    UK:

    image


    USA:

    image

    ______________
    More seriously, one way is to propose to these persons private lessons: you tell them "you have a good voice" but the singing could be improved. And you would be happy to teach them the basics of music in private lessons: reading the notes, intervals, breathing, posture and placing their voice, etc. Usually it is enough to discourage them to continue (too much work) and they won't come back.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    I was once such a choir member. Our choirmaster at the time was also the choirmaster of the local Benedictine monastery. After a couple of disastrous debuts in the choir, he invited me to the monastery, took me to a quiet hidden room above the chapter room, and proceeded to drill Gregorian chant into me (I still have the bruises on my arm!). It took two such intensive Saturdays for me to finally get it. To sum it up, this was 13 years ago and I've been with the choir ever since, and I can sight read chant. I wouldn't say I'm the greatest singer in the world but the current choirmaster considers me solid enough that he likes to locate newbies next to me to give them assurance, and when I sing along with the monks at Mass I'm not asked to shut up (they don't particularly encourage the congregation to sing). So I have to echo Jacques' suggestion that a couple of private lessons.

    Except that in my case it didn't discourage me. So either one of two things will happen: they will improve, or they will get discouraged. Either way the problem will fix itself.

    As a joke I like to tell folks that I'm one of the miracles that will count towards beatification of our old choirmaster (for whom prayers are requested as he's now in a nursing home suffering from Alzheimer's).
    Thanked by 2melofluent Choirparts
  • Jacques PerrièreJacques Perrière
    Posts: 139
    @OraLabora:
    Two Saturdays? It was quick. Bravo! :-)
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    They were quite the Saturdays though. I've never experienced anything quite like it and to say that our choirmaster was the drill sergeant of Gregorian chant would be an understatement. Something "clicked" on the second Saturday, and I went home and rehearsed with recordings. By our next Mass, our choirmaster had another little private session with me in the sacristy and asked me to work the introit with him, and he was very pleased with the result, and I was able to sing well enough to blend into the choir, but certainly not well enough to solo cantor anything.

    Of course it helps too that I attend Mass every Sunday at a monastery that chants the propers and ordinary in Gregorian chant, and with time that helped me improve, understand modality better, etc.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    Have you been praying for them both? I mean really praying that God will go to work in their life and their voice, not just superficially thinking warm thoughts about them.

    Have you been offering the one who attends regularly private vocal coaching (either from you as part of the choir membership, or by recommending a private teacher to them, who they could pay for lessons)?

    Have you told the irregular attender that s/he will have to sit out things that have not been adequately learned, and they have not complied? Do you understand why their attendance is irregular? (Imagine if their spouse was dying or something - you would look like a right tool if you kicked them out of choir now!)

    Have you considered if there are other ways that your regular attender could participate in your music programme - perhaps in administration or promotions or some other aspects, if they don't have enough skills as an instrumentalist?

    Choir members are precious, I would not recommend losing one without a great deal of preparation, including discussion with the pastor as recommended earlier.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    I have similar problems. I have one member who I will "fire" because she is a C & E chorister and upsets people when she shows up.

    The other, well, she takes holidays in the winter and we never have pitch problems in the winter! But I just cannot "fire" her. I do hope that she will eventually tire of the Latin, which she does not enjoy and leave on her own, though it has not yet happened.

    If you are going to do it, I say, do it now.

    And yes, pray!
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    C & E chorister
    Will this term be on the test?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    She can only sing those two notes, and only on specific holidays.
    Thanked by 10PaxMelodious canadash bonniebede JDE CHGiffen Richard Mix StimsonInRehab Jeffrey Quick Choirparts eft94530
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    When a church choir's role is understood as supporting the singing of the congregation...


    I'm fairly confident the church's views on choirs ate not that it is there to support congregational singing...there's much more to it than that.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    There are, however, pastors that believe that way exactly. The main issue is the complete focus on congregational singing, and that everything, EVERYTHING musical should be all for that.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Firing volunteers is a sticky proposition. Frankly, if it were me, I'd have to have auditions next season for limited x number of slots and pray that two more people than usual that can sing sign up. Otherwise, I'd have to live with the croakers.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    '...there's much more to it than that.'

    Much more, indeed.
    Curious, isn't it?, how that those people who are given to the tiresome mantra that 'the people' must 'participate' in everything do not insist that they 'participate' in the priest's parts of the mass, that they 'participate' in the collects, the readings, the homily, the eucharistic prayer, the deacon's parts, etc. Yes, in our time, the choir are there to lead and support the people in their parts, but this does not contradict or abolish their most historic and important role, that of singing propers, anthems, and such aedifying music as ornaments the mass at given moments, music that is there upon which for the people to meditate and by which for them to be inspired. The false and chic egalitarians of our time resent this immensely. As is the case with all these types, they do not, though, want their own parts to be compromised by anyone else's 'participation'.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Steve Q bhcordova
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    There was a church in my hometown that I happened into one day for daily Mass... after reciting the Sanctus, we all knelt down and then the celebrant announced, "let's pray Eucharistic Prayer III, which is found on page 30 of the booklets...," - I thought, how odd. Maybe people like to know where to follow along...

    Then the congregation began reciting the Eucharistic Prayer along with the priest.

    I didn't attend daily Mass there again.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood Ben bonniebede eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    If I wanted to get rid of someone, I would do it - not go through interminable angst and hand-wringing for six months. It makes for good drama, but not good business practice. I actually learned some years ago how to make decisions then move on. A good thing to learn.

    I have a member or two who are not good singers. However, I don't have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and never will. It's a volunteer choir and the members are appreciated. I work with what I have. They improve over time and that's all I am looking for. There will be no perfection from that loft, although they do sound pretty good on given days. I suspect the Holy Spirit gives us a helping hand when things go well.

    Did I mention we have no money? Volunteers are greatly appreciated, since we can't hire anyone.
    Thanked by 4canadash bhcordova R J Stove Pocketharpy
  • Mike Shawaluk
    Posts: 58
     
    Thanked by 1Pocketharpy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    If the expectation of a choir is that people will show up not knowing how to read music, then learning how to read music should be a regular part of choir practice.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen Mike Shawaluk M. Jackson Osborn bonniebede Pocketharpy
  • Mike Shawaluk
    Posts: 58
     
    Thanked by 1Pocketharpy
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    then learning how to read music should be a regular part of choir practice.

    From my choral teaching days at collegiate/secondary levels, a director should be innovative in the various methods of teaching music reading skills. It's easier to be more didactic in approach if you're teaching students each or every other school day. During the Church year, corresponding to the curricular year, a church director should use the repertoire choices themselves to engage chorister cognition. Identify scale wise motion versus intervallic, use commonly known hymns/carols to reinforce their recognition, both by ear and sight, intervals ascending and descending. Use easier chant resources such as SEP and easier choral sources like Simple Choral Propers to put those real-time strategies into sight reading challenges.
    What we do every other summer out here is have free music theory/singing classes on nights we normally rehearse, and enrollment is open to anyone. There we can be more didactic and pedagogical.
    Thanked by 6CHGiffen bhcordova JDE dboothe Mike Shawaluk Pocketharpy
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    I like that idea melo!
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    I agree, choir practice should include learning how to read music.
    If you have choir with different levels of ability, break them up into practice groups, and let them sing together in different rooms, or areas of the church for a few minutes.
    Grab a few well trained people to help you teach those of lesser ability, make it all a big team effort to improve everyones standards. Give those who have reached an acceptable standard time to do practice drills, or to learn a more complex piece of music which only they will sing. The aim should be that at the end of the choir year, everyone should have a sufficient standard to get practice moving. If the choir turnover is not huge, then eventually you just have a newbies group, which you or someone else is teaching the basics to.
    The alternatives are a) to practice at the pace of the slowest, least able member (frustrating for everyone else) b) to practice at a pace suited to more able members, meaning newbies and less able members will be lost, develop bad habits of dependency, or get frustrated and leave.
    Neither a nor b will get you to where you want to be.
    Thanked by 1Mike Shawaluk
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I find it ironic that we've been cowed into believing that "all God's critters got a place in the choir," and yet I highly doubt that a Pastor would keep a lector who clearly has no skill reading aloud in public (perhaps with a stutter) or an altar server who repeatedly drops things.

    Why is it that music is always the place where allowances for bad behavior, lack of discipline or a dismissive attitude toward the need for certain minimum skills is acceptable or tolerated?

    I would only add that music is an art form, singing is the medium. It has been said, and I agree, that the development of a deep mastery of the art of choral singing is accessible to almost everyone. However, it requires a commitment to the time and discipline to do so, and that the desired goals of both accuracy and musicality are essential to that mastery.
    Thanked by 4Mike Shawaluk Jacques Perrière CHGiffen Pocketharpy
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    @ David Andrew: "I highly doubt that a Pastor would keep a lector who clearly has no skill reading aloud in public (perhaps with a stutter)..."

    ...you'd be surprised :-(
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I highly doubt that a Pastor would keep a lector who clearly has no skill reading aloud in public (perhaps with a stutter) or an altar server who repeatedly drops things


    Have you ever been to a church?
    Thanked by 4bonniebede Spriggo M. Jackson Osborn OraLabora
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Also... if we expect that only people who can already sing well and read music should join our choir, where do we think people will learn to sing well and read music? In public school?
    Thanked by 2bonniebede ZacPB189
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Now now now, let's take a breath.....okay now?
    I completely sympathize with the ideology of David's analysis. And if "somewhere over the rainbow" the people of God actually realize their real role as envisioned by V2, they won't stand still when pastoral clerics and staff abrogate their responsibilities by relegating what happens at the ambo, altar and choir to second-tier priority concerns. I reject the notion (also advanced after V2) that among all cathedrals' mandates is one that is to serve as a model for fully realized liturgy. This has been part of the Romeri discussion that's received a great deal of attention. CMAA has literally lifted the curtain of that Oz and demonstrated that the most fiscally impoverished parish can, if it has the will, to effect sacred, beautiful and universal liturgy and music not necessarily requiring professional leadership. (Though, professional leadership should find its way into a parish's priorities eventually.) Emphasis on setting an objective, having a will, staying on course.
    When possible, I endorse a stratified, graded program of choirs/ensembles in whatever rotation is determined corporately to be obvious that there is one weekend Mass that is a sort of pinnacle Mass, the equivalent of the Solemn High Mass as can be achieved. There will always, like the poor, be a "Y'all come sing Choir," because there has to be an open gate where folks will encounter both opportunity and challenge. And again like the poor, there will always be the odd coconut with a thousand personal issues who's gonna walk through that gate into your room and you are, by definition, called to be a pastor to that odd duck (doesn't matter what issues they bring.) But over 45 years, I know that at least the ratio of succeeding with some is 50/50. Just be a Christian about it, and move on. Teach what you can because it's your "act of mercy" to do so, and if that enacts out poorly, exercise true charity when escorting someone to different opportunities to serve.
    We kiss a lot of frogs but eventually one of them will turn into a prince(ss).
    As soon as possible, and if it's upon your hiring as a DMM, insist upon the option to have an auditioned choir. Adjust your expectations and requirements as individuals respond to the invitation. Then work with what you have, not what you hear in your head or remember from your collegiate choruses. Be a true shepherd, mind the flock, bring back a stray, don't be afraid to use the staff now and then. But be true to your calling. Keep your attitude up even when it all seems headed for the crapper. Eventually, you will be awash in concert with your choirs, in consistent and confident practice.
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton Mike Shawaluk
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    I think part of the problem is simply getting people to volunteer to do anything at Mass, especially sing, lector, or take up the gifts.
    Thanked by 1ZacPB189
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    BHCORDOVA,

    Would you care to entertain the question of why, in an Ordo predicated on participation, so few actually do?
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    Apathy, indifference, bad catechesis, need to be educated in stewardship.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood CHGiffen Mike Shawaluk
  • Jacques PerrièreJacques Perrière
    Posts: 139
    This was on The Chant Café two days ago.
    There is a stop button labeled "Dispose of off-key chorister".
    ('labelled' in UK)

    http://www.chantcafe.com/2015/06/raising-funds-for-new-organ.html
    image
    Thanked by 5Andrew_Malton Ben CharlesW bonniebede SarahJ
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    ROTFL!!!!!!
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Is there anything inherent in the Ordo itself? What about "the beatings will continue until morale improves"?
Add a Comment