Sequences
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 340
    Wikipedia states that the Dies irae was moved in 1970 to ad libitum use in the LotH the week before Advent. Is it still optional on All Souls' Day?

    GIRM states that all sequences other than at Easter and Pentecost are optional. Is there legislation that specifically enumerates these or abrogates the restrictions of Trent? Just curious.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    The sequence, when applicable, is provided in the Lectionary (not the Missal, contrary to many people's expectation). It is not given in the Lectionary for All Souls, so it is not an option.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,425
    '...Dies irae... the week before Advent.'

    I stand to be corrected, but I believe that Dies irae was originally sung during Advent and only later came to be associated with requiems. It certainly is thematically apt for the second coming themes of Advent. In some early Episcopal hymnals preceding the 1940, the Dies irae ('Day of wrath, O day of mourning') is given in its entirety as an Advent hymn - to its correct melody! With this background one could conceivably sing it as an 'anthem' at some point in the liturgy during Advent.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I use portions of the melody of the Dies Irae during the Memento of the Dead, and play it at all season --- except, of course, those when organ is discouraged, prohibited or other similar words.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    IIRC, the General Instruction of the Lectionary says "all other sequences are optional". Looked legalistically this is odd, since there are only four "official" sequences remaining: Victimae Paschale (obligatory), Veni Sancte Spiritus (obligatory), Lauda Sion (optional), and Stabat Mater (optional). If they meant "the Seqences for Corpus Christi and Our Lady of Sorrows are optional", they probably would have said that rather than "all other sequences".

    I have used Dies Irae at Requiems in the OF; and know of a Benedictine Priory which has used Laetabundus at Christmas in the OF, and other sequences. In the new GR, in the Benedictine section, you'll notice that they have retained the Sequence for St. Benedict.

    NB: this applies only for the OF; the EF only permits the five sequences of Easter, Pentecost, Corpus Christi, Our Lady of Sorrows, and Requiems.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Ben_Whitworth
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    IIRC, the General Instruction of the Lectionary says "all other sequences are optional". Looked legalistically this is odd, since there are only four "official" sequences remaining: Victimae Paschale (obligatory), Veni Sancte Spiritus (obligatory), Lauda Sion (optional), and Stabat Mater (optional). If they meant "the Seqences for Corpus Christi and Our Lady of Sorrows are optional", they probably would have said that rather than "all other sequences".


    I´m not sure what's odd about it. Victimae paschali can be sung on eight possible days, of which on only one is it obligatory. The rubric is simply saying that on nine of the eleven days on which the sequence might be sung, it is optional.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    If you can make a reading of blanket permission for optional sequences fly, more power to you, but I think the Benedictine Laetabundus is explicitly provided for.
    64. The Sequence which, except on Easter Sunday and on Pentecost Day, is optional, is sung before the Alleluia.
    If this is the sentence we're talking about: how exactly should GIRM have reworded it to exclude, for example, Petre summe Christi pastor?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,229
    St. Benedict's sequence is in an appendix of the Graduale Romanum 1974 (page 871) as part of the proper Masses of the O.S.B., with the starting words "Laeta dies". The book contains just that one plus the four standard sequences. There might be other orders with approved sequences for the Ordinary Form in some other document.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    We sang the Sarum sequence for Ascension (Rex Omnipotens/The King of Heaven as upon this holy day) at (Ordinariate) Solemn Mass yesterday, at St Edmund's in Kitchener, Ontario. A fine stirring mode vii melody.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Adam Wood M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,425
    Andrew -
    Being in the ordinariate, did you follow GIRM and sing the sequence before Alleluya, or after it, where it belongs. I would be inclined to think that the GIRM does not apply to Anglican Use, in which we celebrate Epiphany on Epiphany and Ascension on Ascension, and..... can sing sequences where they historically belong. (And, for those who are disturbed if an Alleluya is not the last thing sung before the gospel, they should know that, historically, sequences are ended with a single Alleluya sung to a simple five note formula. Unfortunately, these are not to be found in any modern mass and chant books.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,402
    Jackson, hence it's a Sequence...

    On Laetabundus: did the Benedictines historically use this Sequence? The Roman Rite at Rome never did, hence it was suppressed after Trent. I know it was retained by the Dominicans.

    The revised liturgical books for the Franciscans provide for the Sequence, at least on the feast of St. Francis. I am not sure if it is provided for on the feast of the imposition of the stigmata or on any other days. Oddly, the 1955 missal for the Third Order Regular friars had the Sequence on the latter but not the former day, which I'm inclined to think was an error (I've seen the pre-conciliar Romano-Seraphic Missal of the OFM as well), though the sequence is sung " as on the feast of the imposition of the stigmata," not the other way around. Fascinating. I'm also fairly certain there is a Sequence for lady Clare as well.

    Richard, it ought to have mentioned the Sequences provided for in the 1570 missal plus the Stabat Mater, even if the Dies Irae was still suppressed. Something like this: "The Sequences Stabat Mater and Lauda sion are optional on Our Lady of Sorrows and Corpus Christi. The Sequence Victimae paschali laudes is mandatory on Easter Day and optional through the Octave [even better, whether it is to be used on Sunday or not, I would say no, but...], and Veni Sancte Spiritus is mandatory on Pentecost Day. It is to be sung before the Alleluia. The Dies Irae is suppressed." Or something like that.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    After, naturally. The deacon sang the Epistle, then we sang Alleluya, God is gone up..., Alleluya, The Lord in the holy place..., The King ..., straight through. (The first Alleluya was not sung between the first and second readings because there was no "first reading", just the Epistle.)

    Since the Ordo Cantus Missae says the sequence comes after the Alleluia, even though the GIRM says before, I take it that if chanting them in Gregorian one can do it the traditional way. But the Ordinariate is not bound by the GIRM anyway since we are not using the novus ordo Missal.

    The translation we sang ends neatly with "In the kingdom of the blest, where we may sing thee evermore our Alleluya", so it ends with Alleluya after all.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Ben_WhitworthBen_Whitworth
    Posts: 90
    I'm no canonist, but for what (if anything) it's worth, it does seem to me that any interpretation of the GIRM which excludes the retention of a practice with 500+ years of continuous use within the Roman rite at Rome (i.e. the singing of the Dies irae at Masses for the Dead), when such a practice is not explicitly and categorically forbidden, verges on a legal rigorism that I find somewhat unappealing. Mutual enrichment, it ain't.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz Adam Wood
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    We took it from Hymn-melodies for the whole year from the Sarum antiphonal, page 39.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,794
    NB: this applies only for the OF; the EF only permits the five sequences of Easter, Pentecost, Corpus Christi, Our Lady of Sorrows, and Requiems.


    More than 5 sequences can be used in the EF, I suspect there are around 20 sequences, that can be found in EF books. Of course these can only be used in certain places / by certain orders.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Can they only be used by certain orders/in certain places, or can they be used by everybody, but are commonly used by certain orders/in certain places? It seems to me that if the material is available and we would like to mark the solemnity of the occasion, then singing the sequence would be a viable option regardless of which order you were in (or none for the most of us), or in which place you were celebrating.

    I find the sequence to be a most edifying part of the liturgy, and lament that there aren't more required in the OF.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,402
    No, they would be restricted to certain orders alone. St. Benedict’s sequence is a really good reason not to expand this, being that the feast always falls in Lent (though the wrong reaction is to move it from his transitus). There are only limited occasions to increase the solemnity, and one does that by singing the Mass, using incense, and celebrating a Solemn High Mass. Adding a Sequence arbitrarily would throw off the sanctoral cycle of the Roman Rite proper.

    Feasts limited to certain places are another matter so long as the saints celebrated on the same day are not relegated to the rubbish bin. Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces ought not to be only for Belgium, for instance.

    As far as having more Sequences go, let’s keep them in Sarum and other uses which had more. Rome only had the few it has today...
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    The Gregorian Missal of 2012 gives the sequence following the alleluia. I think that the reason for the reversed order (sequence plus alleluia in the GIRM) is that they wanted to convert the alleluia into a brief gospel acclamation and didn't take account of the Gregorian alleluia. The Gregorian alleluia is principally a meditation chant following a lesson, as can be seen in the Easter season, when the gradual is replaced by another alleluia. So if you are singing a Gregorian alleluia, it makes sense to sing the sequence after the alleluia.
    Thanked by 8M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen ClergetKubisz MatthewRoth Ben_Whitworth SamuelDorlaque Salieri janetgorbitz
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    On the other hand, one could also say that it's particularly appropriate to sing the Alleluia to introduce the the Holy Gospel, rather than a mediaeval poem, and so it makes sense to sing the sequence before the Alleluia.

    How to resolve this dilemma? If only there were some, I don't know, user's manual for the Roman missal, or general instruction to the Roman missal, or something.... Maybe this question has already been decided for us.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Adam Wood
  • Ben_WhitworthBen_Whitworth
    Posts: 90
    Lock the Graduale and the GIRM in a room and let them fight it out.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl bonniebede
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    My money's on the GR.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,402
    Mark, hence ending the Sequence with Alleluia.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,128
    Except that the GIRM is later and more specific legislation.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    I am told by competent authority, that the GIRM is law in the United States. Nothing was said about whether or not I prefer the GR, or whether I would prefer the earth to be flat, or my heartfelt wish to retreat to an earlier time - 1960 was a good year that bears repeating. However, law is law and I don't get to pick and choose which laws I follow - isn't that a classic definition of Protestantism, picking and choosing, especially for pastoral reasons? Ya think?

    What I am getting at is that GIRM is not just another advisory document to read and rationalize away.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    The OF Graduale is an official liturgical book, editio typica 1974. Thus GIRM and GR are both current valid legislation.

    I propose to apply the same principle that the SRC published on differing rubrics between the Missale Romanum and the Caeremoniale episcoporum: If they give two different descriptions how something is to be done, then both ways are valid options to chose from.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I think @mahrt and others make the good point that the nature/role of the Alleluia have changed as the form has changed. Therefore the placement of the sequence should be inline with how one does the Alleluia.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • TCJ
    Posts: 992
    These days I thought if we could sing "If you're happy and you know it" for the offertory that we could plunk in a sequence anywhere we want, anytime. Victimae Paschali Laudes for the first Sunday of Advent!
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