We are going to do Veni Creator Spiritus by Asola this year. Alternating verses with the chant.

Well, um, we sing my own settings of Veni Creator, St. Patrick's Breastplate/I Bind Unto Myself, and the Trisagion Prayers from the Divine Liturgy, so I guess I'm anathema in Rockford.

My Saturday parish is in the Rockford Diocese. It's a bilingual parish, and of all the stuff we did last year (in May 2014, I think, so before this came out), the only hymn we did that is on that list is "I Am the Bread of Life/Yo Soy el Pan de Vida." The pastor selected all the hymns. (I did manage to persuade him to let us use the organ and the organ loft instead of the piano downstairs.)

The one thing that confuses me a little bit (and I'm not fluent in Spanish, though I do play for Spanish Mass) is that there don't appear to be any Holy Spirit-specific songs on the Spanish list. (Please correct me if I'm reading that wrong.)

Then again, my parish won't have another Confirmation until (probably) next year. So I don't have to worry about this until then.

Why not try the Simple English Propers for Pentecost? These are relatively simple and are posted in the Musica Sacra site, along with the tutorials.

Why not try the Simple English Propers for Pentecost? These are relatively simple and are posted in the Musica Sacra site, along with the tutorials.

I'm not sure why you would do this when one could use the Lumen Christi chants for the Mass for the Conferral of Confirmation posted in a just-as-easy-to-find format here:
http://www.illuminarepublications.com/scores/ritual-masses/

This list is moving in the same forward direction as the 1998 ICEL.

No, wait, 1992 was even earlier.

What a difference a tune makes!
One has always associated this hymn with the dreadful, rather sillily struting pomp of Silver Street (See no. 552 in the 1940).
How commendably spiritual seems the text when sung to St Ethelwald! This more gracious tune commends the text as kindly and civilised advice, rather than as one of those old Christian war-cries of the 'Onward, Christain Soldiers' ilk.
And, yes, it would be well-chosen as a hymn at confirmations. Even ordinations!

Why would one use a Protestant hymn at a Catholic ordination or confirmation?

Please: those who are simply going to pour scorn on the question should avoid doing so. Protestant theology should be taken seriously on its own terms. If someone accused C.S. Lewis of being Catholic, he would most strenuously have denied it. I have the sense that he would be offended to hear people say that he was a great Catholic writer.

Since Protestants deny the sacraments of confirmation and ordination, why is it not demeaning to them to use their work at Catholic sacramental celebrations? Furthermore, why would Catholics intentionally use that which was written from an expressly non-Catholic, anti-Catholic world view in Catholic worship?

A fair point: these soldier-of-Christ hymns were probably not written with confirmation in mind.

If you want to use it, better find out whether the soldier image is used in instructing the candidates. If it's not, the confirmandi will wonder what it has to do with anything.

Of course that's a long-standing theme. It's used in the Catechism of the Council of Trent, though it's not in the canons of the Council of Trent. Maybe it was part of the "spirit of the Council of Trent". :-)

The Catechism of Pope St. John Paul II doesn't use that image, but speaks of the same effects of confirmation:

III. The Effects of Confirmation

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";
- it unites us more firmly to Christ;
- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.

1304 Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, the "character," which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.

1305 This "character" perfects the common priesthood of the faithful, received in Baptism, and "the confirmed person receives the power to profess faith in Christ publicly and as it were officially (quasi ex officio)."

It occurs to me as an afterthought that we, if we follow the logic of Chris, et al., should as well be offended at Protestants who operate soup kitchens, who feed the poor, and do untold good works as commended by our Lord, and hold that the poor are not actually being fed, and that these good works are null and void because they are performed by Protestants. Sadly, I have actually heard 'Catholics' hold such perverse views. The logic is the same as that being applied by some of our esteemed colleagues in objection to Protestant hymnody that is Catholic truth.

(In fact, if I had a choice between singing a certain maudlin and syruppy 'Catholic' eucharistic hymn and Schmucke dich, I would take Schmucke dich. Further, on some days (not all, but some rare ones) I might even choose Schmucke dich over Adoro te. The mystical imagery and spiritual affect of each is unarguably orthodox, essentially Catholic. I would not want to be deprived of either one.)

Adam got that Spanish phrase from a document from the Rockford diocese (linked above), about music for confirmations. It lists several "texts of the Roman Missal which must always be respected", the Kyrie, Gloria, Holy, Our Father, Lamb of God.

Julie, Jackson Osborn,

Thank you, first of all, for taking the question seriously.

A priest friend of mine once taught his students, following his own seminary education: "Text, without context, is pretext". Consider, therefore the following sequences, from Scripture:

Cain killed his brother Abel...... Go thou and do likewise.

And Noah took to himself a wife.....pitched inside and out.

In the beginning, God created... a woman .... in adultery.

Each one of these snippets is actually in Holy Writ.

In case the connection isn't clear to the question I posed and your responses, the context of creation matters, but also the context in which something is used, when it is being put to use for the worship of God.

When Pope Pius X reformed the use of Sacred Music, he noted several important principles. One of these was that music (and texts, and instruments) whose principle proper context was secular, operatic, etc... could not be included in the public worship of the Church. For this reason, the music of Giuseppe Verdi was excluded. His Holiness didn't declare Verdi evil, nor did he say that the music of Verdi was intrinsically bad. He merely noted that what we use for the worship of God should be fitting for the task, and not draw the attention of the assembled faithful to think about things other than God.

So, to address the question: case-by-case or not? Yes, but based on sound and relevant principles. (Non-contradiction is a sound principle, but hardly relevant to this context, unless we're asking "does this text contradict Catholic teaching?")

I completely agree that inclusion in a "Catholic" worship aid doesn't guarantee that something is doctrinally, musically or pastorally appropriate. That's why, even when I had contact with the Missal of Paul VI on a regular basis, I ignored the suggestions of the publishing companies.

Bruce,

I'm glad that you didn't find what I wrote disrespectful, for I try not to be disrespectful. I'm not sure how you decided that I hadn't responded to the other commenters on the thread... but I'm willing to be corrected on this point.

As to a Wesley hymn being a paraphrase of Scripture, On Eagle's Wings can make the same claim, as can The Lord Hears the cry of the Poor , as can Yahweh, I know you are near as can...... I am the bread of life, but none of these is suitable for use in the Catholic Mass, wherever else any of these might find a proper home.

Of course I'm willing to submit myself to the mind of the Church, but evidently you and I read that mind differently. Having in mind the teaching of popes going back hundreds of years, I find that I've understood the mind of the Church reasonably well, if not perfectly.

The examples you cite as being unsuitable "for use in the Catholic Mass" do not rise to the level of Wesley's craft

.

And a more experienced hymn-crafter would be hard to find. As Fr. George Rutler in his book, Brightest and Best, says of Charles Wesley:

"Had the parents of Charles Wesley (1707-1788) been less generous and prolific, the world of sacred hymnody would be immeasurably impoverished. Or almost immeasurably so. For Charles was their eighteenth child and produced what are variously estimated to be somewhere close to sixty-five hundred hymns."

Coincidentally, Fr. Rutler sees in the hymn Soldiers of Christ, Arise the image of a priest vesting for Mass and says: "These lines are as if they were written for vesting at ordinations. I vividly remember a tutor of mine being clothed to them during his consecration as an Anglican bishop in Texas. He was a worthy man, and I hope, is all gathered above now, but it would be far more impressive to sing this as a man is clothed in the vesture of a valid ordination."

Chris,

Indeed, you "did not assert that Wesley was a hack, a bad craftsman or any such thing." You simply dismissed him as a Protestant and thereby did not consider his hymns suitable for Catholic use at Mass.

By that token, should we not also relegate "O Sacred Head Sore Wounded" to the trash-bin of Protestantism, since it is a Presbyterian's (James Waddell Alexader) English translation of a Lutheran's (Paul Gerhardt) translation of a Latin hymn, set to music harmonized by yet another Lutheran (J. S. Bach)?

I'm with M. Jackson Osborn on this:

My sense, as always, is, is there any falsehood in it, does it express the truth, is it worthy literature, is the tune worthy music? If the answers are yes, then it is, sui generis, Catholic. Whatever is true is therefore Catholic.

... the fact that the Holy Spirit does, in fact, quite obviously inspire both beauty and truth outside the Catholic camp, in other Christian ecclesial bodies. We should rejoice in this and not be afraid to avail ourselves of something true and beautiful just because a Protestant wrote it, or crafted it.

I, too, appreciate and even understand something of your zeal, but I cannot seem to agree with your blanket application of it, case-by-case allusions aside.

Adam got that Spanish phrase from a document from the Rockford diocese (linked above), about music for confirmations. It lists several "texts of the Roman Missal which must always be respected", the Kyrie, Gloria, Holy, Our Father, Lamb of God.

Yes, along with the official Spanish translations of the same.

I thought it was amusing that only in Spanish does one apparently have to specify that the Ordinary of the Mass has to follow a particular translation.

Hi Chris,
Just for the record, in the EF, vernacular hymns may be sung not only at Vespers but also at Mass within the guidelines of the liturgical documents, of course. In De Musica Sacra, the use of hymns was encouraged in order to keep the faithful from being "dumb and idle spectators."

De Musica Sacra:

"As we have written above, such hymns cannot be used in Solemn High Masses without the express permission of the Holy See. Nevertheless at Masses that are not sung solemnly these hymns can be a powerful aid in keeping the faithful from attending the Holy Sacrifice like dumb and idle spectators. They can help to make the faithful accompany the sacred services both mentally and vocally and to join their own piety to the prayers of the priest. This happens when these hymns are properly adapted to the individual parts of the Mass, as We rejoice to know is being done in many parts of the Catholic world".

Of course, vernacular hymns may also be sung as processional and/or recessional hymns at an EF High Mass since this is outside the Mass itself. (cf. St. John Cantius' guidelines.)

Re: the Protestantism of Charles Wesley, Fr. George Rutler notes in his book, Brightest and Best, that Charles Wesley, unlike his brother John, was an old-fashioned High Churchman, and was "Caroline in theology as well as name." He "eschewed denominalationism and separatism and remained an Anglican" at heart so perhaps that might make you feel better about his hymns. : )

It seems to me self-evident, however, that the works of heretics and schismatics should be used (as I suggested earlier) with great care, on a case-by-case basis.

Not so self-evident is the implied corollary that Catholic authors should get a pass on any such scrutiny. Chris doesn't say that; rather he says above

why is it not demeaning to [non-Catholics] to use their work at Catholic sacramental celebrations?

It sounds a bit presumptuous to expect thanks from someone who has been blacklisted, even if the blacklister claims to be motivated by solicitous consideration of the blacklistee's allegedly tender feelings.

Those editors and translators thought that those Catholic hymns were perfectly good material for worship, and not at all disqualified by the non-Protestant doctrines their authors held.

I think you will find, however, that none of the doctrines the Protestants objected to were in the hymns in question. To the extent that the same texts did contain Catholic doctrine, they were excised, or taught to mean something they didn't mean. (Perfect example: Faith of Our Fathers.)