Sacramental Theology Question: Fr.s Earthman, Krisman, & Chepponis, et. al
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Bear with me here, I am sure that this is rather tedious and drifting into the realm of what much of the loony Sede Vacantists argue over:

    I was having a discussion with some people yesterday about the crisis in the Church, and the topic of the needed intent to validly confect a sacrament arose, and none to readily agreed whether it was the Intent of the Rite or the Intent of the Minister that was needed. The principal topic was whether or not a bishop who is a Freemason can validly ordain a priest if he, while following the Rite of the Church exactly, does not personally intend to do what the Church does because of a lack of faith.

    I had contended, basing my proposition on the Council of Trent's "anathema" against those who deny that baptism conferred, with the proper form, by heretics, schismatics and infidels is valid, that the sacraments are worked ex opere operato, and that it doesn't matter how flaky His Excellency is, even if he is a heretic, because by the very fact of doing what the Church does he has at least an implicit personal intention of doing what the Church does because of the intent of the Rite being used to do what the Church does.

    My adversary contended that while it doesn't matter if the minister of the sacrament is in a state of sin or not, that if said bishop is a Mason and because he does not believe, even if using the proper form, exactly as in the liturgical books, because he lacks the necessary personal intention to do what the Church does, the ordination has not taken place, and that subsequently all of "Father's" "Masses", "Confessions", etc., are invalid. This appears to me to be drifting into dangerous territory.

    I would like to know a definitive answer to this question. Thank you, Fathers, for your time.
  • Salieri,

    Does your last statement mean that you want answers only from our resident clergy?

    Assuming that you don't want answers from the rest of us, may I refine your question?

    Since we know that a Baptism can be performed validly even by a non-believer, does this reality apply to all of the sacraments? The SSPX argues that even if a Society priest doesn't have faculties to forgive sins or accept consent, something about the priest believing he does (or the faith of the believers does?) provide..... and if I've misrepresented the Society position, I welcome correction on this point. Could a man who has received Holy Orders validly ordain even though he were a Mason, but woman not do so because she can't receive Holy Orders in the first place? At what point do we arrive at the Simulation of a Sacrament?

    How, now that I've plunged headlong into your topic, is it ripe for CMAA consideration?

  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Hope this helps:
    For a sacrament to be valid the are three conditions for validity ...matter, form, intention.

    For what constitutes a valid intention:

    The Holy Office in a response of Jan 24, 1877 (DS 3126). The intention must be that of doing what the Church does, what Christ willed to be done...It follows that particular errors which the minister professes either privately or even publicly cannot stop the validity of baptism or any other sacrament.


    A case to consider is that of the validity of Anglican orders, as taught in Apostolicae Curae
    promulgated September 18, 1896 by Pope Leo XIII.
    He first discusses defects of form introduces by the changing of the rites of ordination among the Anglicans, then goes on to say this about intention:

    33. With this inherent defect of "form" is joined the defect of "intention" which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Bonnie, thank you for the passage form Apostolicae Curae, that is very helpful!

    Chris, Anyone may help answer; I was hoping that our resident clergy could shed some more light on the matter since, I presume, they have had much more theological training the the rest of us!
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Um, as we all know, the outcome of the Donatist controversy covers a multitude of sins. Would it cover these as well? (Let us hope not!)
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,947
    Orthodox faith is not required on the minister’s part. He need only intend what the It is needed on the recipient’s end for the final effect, i.e. habitual sanctifying grace and the right before to actual graces needed for the tasks accompanying the sacraments. I am not sure if the first effect, i.e. sacramental and indelible character would occur if faith were lacking.

    If he does nothing to stop the sacrament, then it occurs, because he still does what the church does by followig the rite. It gets harder to define “intending what the church does” for the other six sacraments besides baptism. At what point does sacramental celebration based on mistaken faith become opposed to what the church does? That leads us to the problem in AC. Leo XIII said not only is it not what the church intends, it is not what she does either.
    If he says, even internally, “I do not will anything occur,” then the sacrament is invalid.

    The woman seeking and giving ordination is simulation, and the CDF has said both are excommunicable latae sententiae. A Mason would not receive grace, and it might be illicit, but under those circumstances, it would be valid.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    This is a very difficult problem to resolve.

    It has even been proposed at the level of the new mass as 'not intending to do what the church has always done'. I know a number of priests who, because of the lack of intent, propose only attending a TLM celebrated by a priest who "intends to do what the church has always done". Otherwise, how can one ever be sure one is attending a valid Mass? It is perplexing.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    So, it seems to me, that this question is in the realm of "we don't go there". Playing "Devil's advocate" a bit here:

    Lets say, if Mr. X has studied in the seminary, is very devout, and indeed intends to be ordained to the Holy Priesthood. The day of his ordination has come: he says, in his heart of hearts "O Lord, today You will make me a priest". He kneels before Bishop A, who, being a Masonic-Modernist-nincompoop, says to himself "I will not ordain him, so as to destroy the Church", and then proceeds to follow the Rite of Ordination exactly, word-for-word. Has Mr. X indeed been ordained, or no?

    To me, this would fall into the area of "the gates of Hell shall not prevail", and that he would be ordained, because the Almighty would will the sacrament to take place in order to confound the Enemy, who thinks that he has triumphed over Him and His Church.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Has Mr. X indeed been ordained, or no?
    Excellent question. When you get a definite answer, Salieri, please email me the dope. Meanwhile, we are in the soup!

    BTW... the gates of hell WILL NOT, but the church may become very small in the mean time, and perhaps, go underground for a while. Even if it exists in one person, the gates of hell still do not prevail.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,947
    No, he would not be ordained.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    ISTM that the economy of salvation ensures that even if a member of the clergy privately does not believe in what he is doing, or in his mind seeks to thwart the Church's intention, the graces contained in the sacraments are nevertheless safeguarded by Divine Protection so that the desire of the Faithful to receive those sacraments and their attendant graces cannot be thwarted by a wantonly wicked cleric who seeks in his heart to destroy the Church.

    Take for example a priest who, in a crisis of Faith, suddenly thinks that the Real Presence is Great Bosh. He still offers the Mass, and uses both proper form and matter to confect the sacrament. Can we truly believe that all of the souls who receive communion from this priest are themselves in great spiritual peril simply because he privately does not believe in what he is doing?

    Another example of this kind of economy: we are told, and must be assured, that even if a Pope proves heretical, the Holy Spirit safeguards the Church as a whole from the taint of heresy. The Pope is not the Church, any more than a cleric is the Blessed Sacrament.

    In the final analysis I think we must take as a matter of Faith that the grace is sufficient, and unless the recipient of the sacrament intends to deceive or receive the sacraments invalidly, we must assume that validity attaches regardless the private desire to thwart it on the part of the sacred minister.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    This is a very intriguing subject, and I hope David's hypothesis is correct re: the scenario Salieri mentioned, but somehow a niggling doubt persists that validity attaches in this case since that would completely negate the consequences of the bishop's evil intention.

    Since the hypothetical bishop freely chose to commit a sacrilege, why shouldn't that mortal sin have negative consequences? As much as I would hope God would supply what was lacking in this case, He would have to intervene and essentially delete the negative effects of the action of a rational human being with free will, and if He could do it in that case, why doesn't He always actively intervene in other situations like this as well? That would conceivably make our existence on this earth far more pleasant and lovely, but I'm afraid that's not the usual pattern of divine action.
    Thanked by 2Salieri francis
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    My problem with all of this is the catastrophic consequences: If this ordination is invalid then that man who assumes that he is a priest, even though the bishop who ordained his is a twit and willed not to ordain him, unbeknownst to himself, then every 'Mass' that this priest has 'celebrated' is a sham, all his absolutions are worthless, the only valid sacrament that he has performed are baptisms.

    Frankly, I find it too frightening to even think about.
  • Salieri,

    You raise exactly the right question. If he is a twit, then this bishop willed not to ordain, EVEN THOUGH he used the correct words. If he willed not to ordain, then one of the essential elements of the ordination didn't occur. Ergo, no ordination.

    But let me put you a middle case.

    If the bishop were the graduate of an American seminary, for example, and had learned (hypothetically) that the priesthood was nothing special but a way to bring people closer to God and that he would be the custodian of some rituals to make old ladies feel good and would need to gradually wean his flock from them....... even if the bishop isn't a twit, can he (the candidate) actually receive ordination?

  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Perhaps it helps to clarify that the intention spoken of is not synonymous with purely psychological intention as we say it in everyday language. Acting in a particular way has an intention embodied in the act.
    A good case to point which we regularly here is the idea that sexual acts outside of marriage are licit because of the love the participant feels. Thus the intention (psychological, or emotional if you will) is determinant of the moral nature of the act. But we know this is erroneous. To borrow from St John Paul, the marital act has an intentionality embodied in it, which expresses permanence and fidelity, which intentionality is contradicted or denied by the pyschological intentionality of the participant who says internally, I love you but I won't marry you.
    Sorry if this is not being clear. The intentionality embodied by the act is not removed by a contrary psychological intention, in fact the sinfulness of the act is in part explained by the contradiction between the two intentions at play - the intention embodied in the act and the psychological intention of the actor.
    Going back to AC, Leo is in a way saying that by using the rite, and the correct matter and form one is expressing an intentionality in harmony with what the Church intends, and only by manifesting in an external act some contrary action could a contrary intention be discerned - in the case of AC, the contrary intention was discerned precisely because of changes to the external rite.
    It is important to note that even the acts of heretics - that is someone who knowingly, consentingly (if that is a word) rejects a truth of the faith - will still be marked with correct intentionality, because, in a way, the act itself embodies that intentionality in it, and the contrary poor pyschological intention of the actor does not vitiate this. Hece sacraments can be validly confected by heretics.

    Not to be confused in all this are actual graces which may be attendant on the reception of the sacrament, or the reception of the graces of the sacrament by the one receiving the sacrament.
    So fr a, devoid of all religious feeling, piety, a notorious sinner and heretic, says mass according to the rites and with valid matter. It is a true mass and graces flow therefrom. But poor faithful z, attending this Mass, although they will receive a valid eucharist, may be considerably dis-edified.
    Happily, next day pious fr b comes to say Mass. Again, faithful z receives a valid eucharist, but in addition, there are enumerable actual graces available, as faithful z is lifted to the heights of contemplative prayer spurred on by pious fr b's devotion, religious attention to detail, and nicely chanted prayers.
    Lastly, another person, unfaithful q, who also attends these masses and receives communion, because of the hardness of their heart, also receives graces because it is a valid sacrament, which graces are bound or unfree in some way in them because of their own lack of receptive opening to the graces of the sacraments on offer.
    (Thankfully, unfaithful q was buttonholed by fr b on the way out, given some good catechesis and went to confession for the first time in forty years, after which the graces of previously received sacraments were, by the mercy of god restored and made operant. Together faithful z and q are now doing penance weekly for Fr A's soul, and who knows, it might work) ;-) Sorry, I once told stories to kids for a living. will try to get back on track.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks for this illumination, Bonnie. I think I must have been mistaken in what I said above and was maybe unwittingly lapsed into the Donatist heresy. Sorry about that. : [

    I think you might be talking about the doctrine of ex opere operato . According to that doctrine, if a bishop follows the ordination rite exactly (worthily?) but has the personal intention of not doing what the Church intends or has some other malicious intent, the sacrament is still validly conferred.

    However, the sacrilegious act of the hypothetical evil bishop is obviously a mortal sin, while the fruits, or efficaciousness, of the sacrament depends on the disposition of the recipient.

    From the CCC

    1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.


    1128 This is the meaning of the Church's affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: "by the very fact of the action's being performed"), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.
    Thanked by 2bonniebede Salieri
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Not being picky, but, where is 1128 backed up by historical documents (older catechisms) or other writings?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Francis, from what I see on the Vatican website at the link above, the citations for footnotes 49 and 50 in section 1128 pasted above are these:

    49 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1608.
    50 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 68,8.

    Hope that gives you something to work with. I looked them up and didn't think they were very helpful, to tell you the truth. However, this explanation in the Summa Theologica, Pars Tertia, 64, 8, "Whether the minister's intention is required for the validity of a sacrament?" is excellent, as is Article 9. It makes me wonder if the citation above in the CCC was incorrect and should have been 64, 8, but who am I to judge such lofty matters?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    You can find the footnote here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P33.HTM
    Thanked by 1francis
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Bingo! I think I found the answer to Salieri's question above about the Modernist-Masonic bishop in the Summa, Pars Tertia, 64:9, "Whether faith is required of necessity in the ministry of a sacrament":

    I answer that, As stated above (Article 5), since the minister works instrumentally in the sacraments, he acts not by his own but by Christ's power. Now just as charity belongs to a man's own power so also does faith. Wherefore, just as the validity of a sacrament does not require that the minister should have charity, and even sinners can confer sacraments, as stated above (Article 5); so neither is it necessary that he should have faith, and even an unbeliever can confer a true sacrament, provided that the other essentials be there.


    Also, in case the hypothetical Modernist-Masonic bishop is also malicious and evil, Article 5 on the same page discusses, "Whether the sacraments can be conferred by evil ministers?"

    I answer that, As stated above (Article 1), the ministers of the Church work instrumentally in the sacraments, because, in a way, a minister is of the nature of an instrument. But, as stated above (62, 1,4), an instrument acts not by reason of its own form, but by the power of the one who moves it. Consequently, whatever form or power an instrument has in addition to that which it has as an instrument, is accidental to it: for instance, that a physician's body, which is the instrument of his soul, wherein is his medical art, be healthy or sickly; or that a pipe, through which water passes, be of silver or lead. Therefore the ministers of the Church can confer the sacraments, though they be wicked.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,947
    Chris, yes, the ordination would be valid in your scenario. In fact, substitute baptism and a Protestant who does it only because Christ said so, you have a clear example of intending what the church does without intending the intention.

    No, to intend what the Church intends is more than sufficient for the valid celebration of the sacraments. To intend what the Church does Is the minimum requirement. AC is interesting because they have defective intention and form, but saying the intention is not to intend what the church does is often tricky. (I need to review this for my final exam... I think it goes beyond simply using the Catholic rite). BTW, at least my sacraments prof refers to the graces which make us holy as habitual sanctifying grace, and he reserves actual graces for those which are necessary for our tasks that accompany a sacrament (baptism, marriage, confirmation, holy orders, and confession). But, they only come later; theologian Matthias Scheeben says sacraments give the right to those graces. Actual graces of course also come and inspire us to something meritorious, which in turn lead to an increase in sanctifying grace. For that, the Mass example above is good.

    Julie, my prof cited St. Thomas and the ecumenical councils, and yes, St. Thomas is exactly right.

    By the way, this is the one problem of the dogma that sacraments work ex opere operato. We presume validity, but the repurcussions are severe if it is abused e.g. a renegade bishop or undermined by a private obstruction to the sacrament where the minister refuses to do what the church does.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl CHGiffen
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Thanks Julie for the interesting research there. :-)
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Bonnie, thanks to you, David and Matthew for pointing the way in the right direction above. It's been a long time since I studied these things, and the meanings of "ex opere operato" and "ex opere operantis" were a bit fuzzy. I'm sure glad we can refer to the Angelic Doctor on things like this.

    Matthew, I'm just curious--have you ever come across a situation in your studies where an argument of St. Thomas Aquinas has been satisfactorily proved to be incorrect by later developments?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen bonniebede
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    have you ever come across a situation in your studies where an argument of St. Thomas Aquinas has been satisfactorily proved to be incorrect by later developments?


    I'm not Matthew, but the most famous case is his rejection of the Immaculate Conception. Less famously, Thomas (along with many medieval theologians) denies that the ordination of a bishop is a sacrament, which is contradicted by Lumen Gentium.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • FCB,

    May I pick a nit? The consecration of a bishop is not a separate sacrament; there are 7 sacraments, since consecration is the fulfillment of Holy Orders.

    I haven't read St. Thomas on the Immaculate Conception, so I can't comment there.

    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Chris is correct: bishops are consecrated, not ordained. The bothersome reality of this nettlesome nit that Chris has picked doesn't prevent quite a few people from referring to the 'ordination' of bishops.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The problem with bishops (well, lets face it, there are a lot of problems with bishops) is that until Pius XII the Three Major Orders were considered those of Sub-Deacon, Deacon, & Priest. One was ordained to the Sub-Diaconate, to the Diaconate, to the Priesthood, and then Consecrated Bishop, receiving the fullness of Holy Orders.

    Pius XII, in Sacramentum Ordinis, changed the Major Orders to: Deacon, Priest, & Bishop. One now speaks of Diaconate Ordinations, Priestly Ordination, and Episcopal Ordination.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • While bishops are consecrated, that consecration is also a form of ordination.
    In point of fact if a lay man were consecrated bishop, he would also thereby be ordained a deacon and priest by the same act (this would be illicit, but as the bishop possesses the fullness of orders it would necessarily be so). It is better to speak of episcopal consecration, but episcopal ordination is also entirely correct.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    Sorry, but "consecration" is not a "better" term. The Church herself, in her ritual books, prefers the term "ordination." Also, through history there has been a diversity of opinions on what was included in the sacrament of Holy Orders. Durandus of St.-Porçain thought that only priestly ordination was a sacrament (excluding both episcopacy and diaconate), while Robert Bellarmine held that ordination (or "consecration," if you prefer) to the episcopacy was a sacrament (contrary to Aquinas and others). To my knowledge, it is only at Vatican II that the Church teaches authoritatively on the issue.

    To Chris, you're right, it is not a separate sacrament. But it is a sacrament, in the sense that someone ordained a bishop has received a sacrament (which is what Aquinas denied).
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Fritz

    Perhaps a helpful contrasting example: elevation to the papacy. It certainly bestows even more power and jurisdiction than a bishop gains in a change from priesthood to episcopate, but it's not an ordination....
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    Liam: Exactly.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,947
    Aquinas and Scheeben disagree on the sacraments. TA says they as physical signs of the transmission of grace only come after the Fall, but Scheeben points out grace came through the physical act of generation prior to the Fall... TA also muffed ensoulment. The authors of Roe referred to that, so Paul VI ordered the CDF to issue the declaration on procured abortion. Now, my Honors (great books) seminar prof holds in disdain his view that masturbation, followed by homosexuality, are the worst sins against chastity...I love my prof, but she, not Thomas, is wrong there! The Church might not use his list exactly, but he isn’t contradicted! For whatever reason, she thinks the list is a weaker moment of his. I do not know why though. (I had to defend him there...)