Experience that has saddened me...
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    My wife is part of RCIA and is converting to Catholicism as of Easter. In the last of her things she had to do was go to the local Cathedral and be introduced to the Archbishop. This I was not looking forward, as I knew they had brought it into the looks of what supposedly was wanted in Vatican II. Entering the Cathedral, with the hanging toothpick Jesus crucifix right over the central alter first hit me hard... it made me sad. Next, how our seats (no pews, just chairs) were in the front where the high altar used to be. We were facing the back of the church. I saw the Tabernacle tucked away in a hallway to the right. No one bowed to it, or knelt to it. People treated it like an "art piece" at an art museum, much of how they made that Cathedral look... not like a house of god, but almost like a museum.

    The icing was the music played during this Rite of Election/Introduction to the Arch. I think they may have played one more traditional song out of the many picked. The psalm that was picked when my wife went up sounded like some sort of Bar Mitzvah song, with tambourines, maracas, bongo drums, and piano. It was so loud and disturbing, and they kept repeating it every 2-3 Churches that went up. The rest of the music picked all involved flute, piano, those bongos, and cello/violin. Occasionally mix in the organ. It was a mish-mash, with nothing that even remotely sounded beautiful. Not to mention, the choir/instrumentalists were all on show, in the area where the high altar used to be.

    I left the Cathedral feeling so sad. My wife was upset and mad by the experience, but I just felt sad and defeated. Something that should have been so memorable and happy ended up being loud and embarrassing. I have been praying on it since Sunday, how can we go from a Mass that we attended earlier that day that could be so beautiful and sound like a choir of angels from the choir loft, that had a feeling of reverence, to an "event" at the Cathedral that was so intruding and didn't represent anything of beauty? The funny thing is... some feel it was beautiful... I just can't see it. Maybe I am just not accepting enough... who knows... but God's house should always represent beauty and a feeling of peace in what I have always learned. What I experienced was a lack of all that...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Having lived through post-VII and the "reform," one thing always struck me as funny - funny in a laughable sense. The most goofy of the reformers were older priests and bishops who somehow thought they were "with it," or connecting with the young folks. Wish someone could explain that one. Did they think it made them young again? Was it a protest against aging? Were they fighting off irrelevance? I don't know. But one thing for certain, they neither attained youth again nor relevance. A procession of pathetic souls marching to eternity protesting their rightness in all things, wearing no clothes, but seeing themselves splendidly arrayed. Go figure! I never understood it.
    Thanked by 2musiclover88 Vilyanor
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    In his own inimitable style, Thomas Day, in the opening of his book Where Have You Gone Michelangelo (the sequel to Why Catholic Can't Sing), describes a similar type of liturgy as an experience of "ineffable weirdness: something bizarre, neither fish nor fowl, weak, vaguely diseased. What ever it was, the weirdness had a life of its own and effectively blocked any encounter with theological messages the ritual was trying to convey."

    This was a convention liturgy from 1980 (what some would call the nadir of liturgy in this country) and sadly, it seems that in some places, little has changed in the past 30 years.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    The most goofy of the reformers were older priests and bishops who somehow thought they were "with it," or connecting with the young folks.


    This. It reminds me of when I was in high school and I attended a number youth conferences and retreats with my parish's youth group. It was usually run by a group of 40 or 50-somethings who played a bunch of really bad, outdated praise and worship songs from the 80s and early 90s (this was in the early 2000s). We always left wondering why they thought that playing dorky music would help the "young people" connect with their faith. It just made us feel like they thought we were stupid.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    My wife is part of RCIA and is converting to Catholicism as of Easter

    Thank God. You are wrong - there was something very beautiful in the Church - you, your wife and your faith. How pleasing that must to God. And maybe it made him smile,,, to think of his quiet revolution going on, another soul who has come to love Jesus in the Eucharist, and good liturgy!
    Brick by brick? or maybe living stone by living stone?
    Thanked by 4canadash Jani WICatholic Jenny
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    What bonniebede said. And this:
    how can we go from a Mass that we attended earlier that day that could be so beautiful and sound like a choir of angels from the choir loft, that had a feeling of reverence, to an "event" at the Cathedral that was so intruding and didn't represent anything of beauty?


    How great that you have someplace beautiful and reverent to return to!
    Thanked by 2canadash WICatholic
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    I appreciate everyone's comments here. I prayed on it for a while; luckily I was headed to my hour at our Parish's adoration chapel, so I was able to pray in silence on it for that time. I did end up reading something in a book a Priest told me to read, "At God's Pace". The part that I read that day discussed how when you feel pure joy and an immense feeling deep inside, you know God is there and know it is right. It really was quite fitting for that day, and made me feel happy that I at least know of a few Parish's in our city that are very reverent and beautiful in their Mass.

    I was actually at the RCIA director's Parish prior to that. He knows that we like the beauty and wonder of the old Mass, and the Cathedral wasn't too far from it. How beautiful it was to be in a Church built in the 1800's, complete with a BEAUTIFUL hand carved wood high altar, two smaller but still beautiful side altars, an altar rail, and the Mass done totally in the ordinary form. It showed me that you CAN have a reverent, very peaceful, very beautiful Mass, along with the incense, the bells, and it can be in the ordinary form in English (and Latin Agnus Dei, Sanctus, etc). It was also wonderful to see confession being done while Mass was going on, with a very very long line throughout. While our Parish doesn't have all this, at least the music is of angels from the loft, and Mass is done the way it should be.

    As you say... brick by brick. Thank you everyone. I told my wife after we were at the Cathedral "at least we have a beautiful Parish". I think as the new Priest start coming into the fold, reverence and beauty will return. The young Priests seem to really grasp the tradition of the Church.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    It was also wonderful to see confession being done while Mass was going on


    I don't understand how this is a good thing.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn Gavin kenstb
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Adam:

    Because you cannot go to communion if you are in sin, although some Germans would like to change that.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Adam, in this Diocese priests do not hear Confessions very often at all. It's the "1 hour on Saturday and 1 hour on Wednesday evening or call for appointment" thing.

    Worse, with the work schedules people have, that 2 hours may or may not be practical at all, especially for a family with children.

    I observed an EF group which had Confessions during Mass until the Offertory began. I'll say this about it: there were a LOT of Confessions heard from a LOT of penitents. Seems that perhaps the availability spurred the volume.

    So, while I share your reservations about Confessions "during Mass," I'm not dead-set agin' it.
    Thanked by 1WICatholic
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    We arrived to the church about 15 min prior to the 10am Mass on Sunday... and the line for confession went out the door of the church. It seemed to just continue throughout Mass, until Offertory when the Priest came out to distribute communion.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I think the objection to confession during mass was that you can't effectively do two things at the same time. Multi-tasking has been lauded in business circles for years, but the simple truth is that most people are lousy at it. Aren't we supposed to be participating in the mass and worshipping, not using it as a backdrop for everything else?

    My parish has regularly scheduled Saturday confessions, but has added an extra time on Sunday afternoons during Lent. The folks seem to like that.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Gavin
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    I thought that, if there is more than 1 priest in the parish, that having the Sacrament of Reconciliation during Mass is actually encouraged.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I think there's a "Martha/Mary" equation within this discussion of penance during Eucharist. And the answer to the conundrum may be found there.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    You can receive the sacrament of penance while Mass is being offered. But you may need attend another Mass if it's a day of precept to fulfill your obligation to attend Mass.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    I know exactly the Cathedral you are speaking if, and the disfunctional bishop and also the "liturgical designer"who made those changes, thorough a long and protracted battle with the Vatican and the people of the diocese. Honestly, if i was a member if that parish, i woul hire a lift and sneak in during the night and take that horror over the altar down and destroy it.
    Not that i really have an opinion lol.
    Thanked by 1dad29
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    You participate in the Mass while in line, step into the confessional for two minutes, participate in the Mass again. No big deal. You would do the same for a nosebleed.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    The only time I've experienced Confession during Mass is when I used to attend a small mission church that only had one Mass a week. One time, two priests came to the church instead of one and the other one was able to hear confessions. It was really nice, because otherwise I wouldn't have had a chance for the entire summer.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I remember those "during mass" confessions being common in the late 60s, and they were routine long before that. At some point, the priests were told by the chancery not to do them any more. Was there a rule change from the Vatican or conference of bishops? I don't know. I do know that the practice stopped and hasn't been seen again in my area.
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    I think it's kind of unnecessary to do it during Mass when the church already has regularly-scheduled confession times. But if there's no other way, you have to have access to it somehow.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Redemptionis Sacramentum 76. Furthermore, according to a most ancient tradition of the Roman Church, it is not permissible to unite the Sacrament of Penance to the Mass in such a way that they become a single liturgical celebration. This does not exclude, however, that Priests other than those celebrating or concelebrating the Mass might hear the confessions of the faithful who so desire, even in the same place where Mass is being celebrated, in order to meet the needs of those faithful. This should nevertheless be done in an appropriate manner.

    Thanked by 2eft94530 musiclover88
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Kathy

    Hence why I used "may" rather than "must". Not all confessions take 2 minutes... And confessions is elective.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Hence why I used "may" rather than "must". Not all confessions take 2 minutes... And confessions is elective.


    Two minutes would be short! I always get behind the axe murderer who hasn't been in 25 years. Either that - well, let's just say don't ever get behind the little old lady wearing a toboggan and clutching a rosary. You will be in that line until the wee hours. ;-)
    Thanked by 1musiclover88
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    wearing a toboggan

    ?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • barnabus1898barnabus1898
    Posts: 91
    We had confessions during our Ash Wednesday Liturgy until the Homily. It is a beautiful thing. This practice is ancient, but it makes more sense in the EF since it is not linear like the NO. Still, there have been many times that people I know did not get to make a good confession before the next Sunday Mass. In most of our parishes, there is only one priest, so Confession during Mass is an impossibility. We happen to have an associate, so we were blessed to be able to have this!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Bonnie, it is a knitted hat. She wasn't wearing a sled. LOL.
    Thanked by 2bonniebede Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Charles, I always remember Fr. Benedict Groeschel saying at a mission in our parish how he hoped there would be some "big fish" in the confession line and maybe even some "whales".
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    I have seen the cubby-holes where they sometimes hide the Blessed Sacrament. It must be reserved in a place of dignity, in a normal church prominently, preferably in a central location that reflects its centrality to our life and liturgy. However, in cathedrals, the Blessed Sacrament has always been reserved in a separate chapel, not a hallway, but a beautiful and dignified chapel, very often due East of the principal altar facing East.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Before and after
    MilwaukeeCathedral_before.jpg
    468 x 321 - 38K
    MilwaukeeCathedral07.jpg
    320 x 232 - 22K
    Thanked by 5dad29 WICatholic Aristotle Esguerra BruceL eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Charles, I always remember Fr. Benedict Groeschel saying at a mission in our parish how he hoped there would be some "big fish" in the confession line and maybe even some "whales".


    Julie, let's not get into whales. You know how the heavy among us react. LOL.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Thanks for the pictures ghmus, since I have never seen that cathedral in person. I think Chicago has the worst case I have personally seen of what unrestrained vandals can do to a building. There probably are worse, I just haven't seen them.

    With our cathedral, it was ugly to begin with, so the Vandals coming to town might have improved it. There was a fire a few years ago and even some of the priests said they should have waited an hour before calling the fire department. LOL. We are building a new one which will be a huge improvement and should be beautiful.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    don't ever get behind the little old lady wearing a toboggan and clutching a rosary.

    Was it Fulton Sheen who compared hearing a nun's confession to being stoned to death with popcorn?
    Thanked by 3CharlesW JulieColl kenstb
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I know exactly the Cathedral you are speaking if, and the disfunctional bishop and also the "liturgical designer"who made those changes, thorough a long and protracted battle with the Vatican and the people of the diocese.


    Yup. Actually, it should remain "as is" to serve as a reminder of what antinomianism really is. Among other wastes, that Bishop purchased a second pipe-organ and placed it where the old altar was. Now there are two: the Noehren in the choir loft (commissioned and built for the Fifth Int'l Church Music Congress in the mid-'60's BEFORE the arrival of Bishop Dysfunction) and the new one.

    Wonder why Milwaukee is in bankruptcy?
    Thanked by 2WICatholic Aristotle Esguerra
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    And I'm reminded of an incredibly gifted but now stridently sedevacantist priest (and musician and organist) who was a seminarian in the Diocese of Milwaukee in the 70's. Who knows what awful things he experienced there which possibly propelled him away from the Church?

    Oremus pro eo!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    "You participate in the Mass while in line, step into the confessional for two minutes, participate in the Mass again. No big deal. You would do the same for a nosebleed."

    Intent.

    You attend Mass with the intention of full participation. But then you, for whatever reason - in many cases, convenience, you decided to make it a twofer! Get two sacraments at the same time!

    (heck, why not have Confirmation at the Mass, too...and baptize a couple of babies? And anoint the sick!)

    To fully participate in Confession you end Watching the line, going over your sins in your mind that need to be confessed, seeing the back of the heard of the person in front of you, remembering that the last time you went to confession you forgot what to say.

    How can you suggest that partaking of a Sacrament of the church during the Mass is no big deal, equivalent to dealing with a nosebleed? You've got the theological background that many of us (myself especially) lack. Explain or withdraw this comment.

    Thanked by 2melofluent eft94530
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Much as I agree with your comment, Noel, allow me to raise (again) the practical difficulties many Catholics encounter with the Sacrament of Penance.

    At least in this Archdiocese and a neighboring Diocese, it is my observation that opportunities for Confession are extremely limited. That may be due to the "priest shortage", or it may be due to the utter lack of a "sense of sin" prevailing with laity (and priests, by the way.)

    In my Archdiocese, one must travel 15+ miles one-way to find Confessions which are easily available. By "easily available" I do not mean "by appointment." I mean that they are available at least two days/week for more than 1 hour, not just on Saturdays from 3-4 PM, or Wednesdays from 7-8 PM. Having Penance-a-thons before Christmas and Easter is.....ahhh......not a substitute, either.

    To an extent, I will accept the argument that Catholics must sacrifice toward their redemption, or 'too bad--get there when it's available!' But one can also make the case that the burden imposed by these restrictive opportunities is a heavy one, indeed.

    Of course, we could all remain sinless, no?
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    I guess the point I was trying to drive home more than anything is.... I don't see Catholic Parishes like that, where they have the availability for confession, much less a line all the way to the back of the church prior to Mass starting. It is a shocking scene for me. My Parish has a line when I have gone, but the times aren't super flexible (however, they seem to offer more confession times than some Parishes). I usually have to plan my trips to certain Parishes that can work with my schedule for confession.

    Another interesting comment I heard from one of my doctors (whom I found out was at this same event for his wife, who is converting.. what a small world). He called the event "interesting". Not "wonderful" or "beautiful" but "interesting". And IMO he is not hard core into the religion like I am... actually he is rediscovering it along with his wife.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    the practical difficulties

    Understood and agreed with. The days of priests hearing confession while Mass is said in most diocese would require bi-location, or whatever ti is called.
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 269
    I would urge you to come back to the Cathedral on on a Sunday or other holy day when the Cathedral (parish) choir is singing. The Archdiocese of Milwaukee has an Archdiocesan Choir which sings at Archdiocese events and the Cathedral has a parish choir that sings at parish liturgies. I have sung in both but now sing only in the parish choir. I believe you will find the parish liturgies more to your liking. Here is a portion of our Easter liturgy from last year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3TdBpoJnkc
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    On a more positive note, I was at a very beautiful OF Mass in Cleveland this last Sunday in Little Italy, and they had an organ and a violinist. The music was VERY beautiful, and was done VERY professionally. While choice of repertoire is extremely important, the quality of the performance also has a lot to do with beauty.

    Hence, some may object to chant, because they've only heard it done badly, or may object to the organ, because they've only heard it played badly. If Sacred Music is to make a return, it must be done well.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    If Sacred Music is to make a return, it must be done well.

    Goes without saying.....it should be sung! Great catch, CK!
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Dear Chaswjd:
    Thanks for posting this, its clear that the music folks are doing everything thay can.
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