The reform of the reform was "mistaken"?

JulieColl

Pope Francis said yesterday in his speech to the clergy of Rome that "the reform of the reform" was "mistaken" and seminarians who want the traditional liturgy are "imbalanced" and prone to psychological problems.

Any guesses on what this means?

Are we heading back to the '70's and '80's where seminarians and priests with traditional sympathies were sent off to the gulag for psychological testing and reprogramming?

If a conservative priest sees this, what's the message he gets? I think it's "make a move back towards tradition and you could be toast."

Arthur Connick

Having apparently condemned the Reform of the Reform, perhaps Pope Francis will also settle once and for all exactly what it is.

CharlesW

Rorate Caeli is kind of like asking Fr. Gruner what the future holds - not the most reliable of sources. However, aside from maintaining that the cardinals elected Joe Biden to the pontificate, Pope Francis needs to keep his mouth shut more often. He rambles, wanders into areas where his statements are anything but clear, and generally creates more heat than light.

Reform of the Reform? I'm with Arthur. What is it? Will we recognize it when it happens?

ronkrisman

I don't see any "condemnation" in yesterday's report from ZENIT. IMO Chicken Little responses to what was said at the Roman clergy gathering are uncalled for. The piece in ZENIT:

Pope Holds Two Hour Meeting with Roman Clergy

Speaks Briefly on Homiletics, Engages in Open Discussion With "His Priests"

By Salvatore Cernuzio

ROME, February 19, 2015 (Zenit.org) - While many newspapers have reported solely on comments regarding 'married priests', there is much more to Pope Francis' address during his annual meeting with the clergy of Rome today. The Bishop of Rome spent almost two hours with hundreds of priests, speaking briefly on homiletics and the Ars celebrandi. However, he spent most of the time engaging in an open discussion with the clergy saying: "I am more interested in your questions." The Pontiff's intentions weren't on giving a lecture, but in conversing directly with "his priests."

After the opening greetings given by Cardinal Agostino Vallini, the Vicar General of Rome, the meeting began with discussions on an address given by the Holy Father to the plenary assembly of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments on the theme of the Ars celebrandi on March 1st, 2005. The text was distributed to the participants and was republished today by L'Osservatore Romano. Still, the centerpiece of today's audience were the questions by several priests, including some not programmed, to which the Pope did not hold back and was ready to respond. Furthermore, in order to allow for more freedom to speak, the Holy Father requested that no television cameras be present in the Paul VI Audience Hall.

However, some excerpts of the Pope's discourse were released thanks in part to several priests who spoke to the press following the meeting. Some even managed to record the Pope's words. In addition to several phrases reported by a few Italian news agencies this morning, the 78 year old Pontiff touched upon the theme, for example, on the "traditional rite" with which Benedict XVI granted to celebrate Mass. Through the Motu Propio Summorum Pontificum, published in 2007, the now Pope Emeritus allowed the possibility of celebrating the Mass according the liturgical books edited by John XXIII in 1962, notwithstanding that the "ordinary" form of celebration in the Catholic Church would always remain that established by Paul VI in 1970.

Pope Francis explained that this gesture by his predecessor, "a man of communion", was meant to offer "a courageous hand to Lefebvrians and traditionalists", as well as to those who wished to celebrate the Mass according to the ancient rites. The so-called "Tridentine" Mass – the Pope said – is an "extraordinary form of the Roman Rite", one that was approved following the Second Vatican Council. Thus, it is not deemed a distinct rite, but rather a "different form of the same right".

However, the Pope noted that there are priests and bishops who speak of a "reform of the reform." Some of them are "saints" and speak "in good faith." But this "is mistaken", the Holy Father said. He then referred to the case of some bishops who accepted "traditionalist" seminarians who were kicked out of other dioceses, without finding out information on them, because "they presented themselves very well, very devout." They were then ordained, but these were later revealed to have "psychological and moral problems."

It is not a practice, but it "happens often" in these environments, the Pope stressed, and to ordain these types of seminarians is like placing a "mortgage on the Church." The underlying problem is that some bishops are sometimes overwhelmed by "the need for new priests in the diocese." Therefore, an adequate discernment among candidates is not made, among whom some can hide certain "imbalances" that are then manifested in liturgies. In fact, the Congregation of Bishops – the Pontiff went on to say – had to intervene with three bishops on three of these cases, although they didn't occur in Italy.

During the beginning of his address, Francis, spoke on homiletics and the Ars celebrandi, calling on the priests to not fall into the temptation of wanting to be a "showman" on the pulpit, perhaps even by speaking in a "sophisticated manner" or "overt gestures." However, priests shouldn't also be "boring" to the point that people "will go outside to smoke a cigarette" during the homily.

To this end, the Holy Father – in the few minutes of his speech that was broadcast in the Holy See Press Office – recalled three personal anecdotes that occurred in Buenos Aires that dealt with "the challenges" of delivering homilies. For example, when several friends enthusiastically told him that they found "a Church where the Mass is done without a homily", as well as another occasion where a niece complained of having heard "a 40 minute lecture on St. Thomas' Summa Theologica" instead of a homily.

In short, the homily – the Pope highlighted – is pronounced with the intention of helping the faithful to enter "into the mystery of faith."

"If I am an excessive columnist and rigid, that is not good. And if I am a showman, they do not enter into the mystery," he explained.

The Pope said that he understood this concept well after several years, during a plenary in 2005, where following an address, he was corrected by both Cardinal Joachim Meisner and the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger for not having said that in the Ars celebrandi, one needed to above all, "feel in front of God."

"And they were right," the Pope said, "I did not speak about this."

During the open time for questions, Fr. Giovanni Cereti, a theologian at various Pontifical universities, spoke. Fr. Cereti is the author of the book "Divorce, Remarriage and Penance in the Primitive Church", in which he states that in the first millennium, people in adultery were readmitted into the community after a period of penance and were able to receive communion while in a new marriage.

Today, Cereti (who has received dispensation after he married) asked the Pope if in the future, married priests can be readmitted to celebrating Mass after obtaining dispensation. "It is a problem that does not have an easy solution", the Pope said. However, the Holy Father said that the he and the Church have the question at heart.

The issue, he continued, is also being looked into by the Congregation for the Clergy, who have conceded to the practice of dispensation only in rare cases of former priests who are elderly and have asked to celebrate Mass, in private, before dying. Regarding the problem in itself however, the Pope stressed: "I am not sure if it can be resolved."

[Translation by Junno Arocho Esteves]

CharlesW

I don't see any "condemnation" in that article, either. I think Pope Francis will be remembered as the master of the non sequitur. Although, what he says about discernment and evaluation of candidates for priesthood makes pretty good sense.

Arthur Connick

The Zenit article says that Pope Francis said a "reform of the reform" "is mistaken". Whether he really said or meant this is another matter.

CharlesW

Whether he really said or meant this is another matter.

Don't we all spend far too much time trying to figure out whether or not he said something and what he could possibly have meant? Better communication skills are definitely called for.

rogue63

He was speaking partly, I think, about the many wild and free-ranging episcopi vagranti, who ordain priests and other bishops on a whim. Some of these priests float back and forth: SSPX, FSSP, diocesan, independent, back again. There are many good priests in al the above, but there are more safeguards in the diocesan seminaries: they don't admit you just because you recite the creed in Latin. He's right about the moral and psychological issues; those who are being taught in diocesan seminaries are getting much better and wider formation than those who are being taught in people's living rooms and offering liturgies in hotel ballrooms.

And yes, he's a master of non sequitur. I agree with CharlesW; perhaps the Ladies Guild could knit a sock for Fr. Lombardi, and Fr. Lombardi could use it to stuff the Holy Father's mouth from time to time?

JulieColl

Yes, it's yet another memorable phrase to add to the cloud of confusion and fog that hangs over our heads nowadays. One thing is very clear, however: the knives are being sharpened for anyone with traditional sympathies.

You know the type, all those rigid, cold-hearted, close-minded, nasty, unfeeling, hypocritical, triumphalist, long-faced, mournful, authoritarian, elitist, legalist, pickled pepper faced doctors of the law and rosary counters.

As we ~~walk~~ run as Church towards deep and global renovation (cf. Cardinal Maradiaga) let's throw out all the bad traddies and rabbits and open the doors to all those folks on the periphery clamoring and breaking down the doors to get in.

bonniebede

Once upon a time in Ireland, you had to leave the country to study for the priesthood, and risked martyrdom as soon as you came back. Ars celebrandi consisted in finding a rock sufficiently isolated to hide your saying of the Mass from the armed soldiers hunting you and your parishioners. Being a lay Catholic meant severe civil penalties too. We survived. We can survive this, whatever this 'this' turns out to be too, same as we did last time, with the grace of God. Pray the rosary.

rogue63

JulieColl, you're trying to be funny, but that's exactly what I encountered at an FSSP parish for three years. Spite, hate, anger and fear. I can't see your characterization as anything other than accurate.

ClemensRomanus

I, on the other hand, have encountered the opposite our local FSSP parish. Great, warm, loving people. YMMV

rich_enough

I always find it odd that we are urged to treat everyone with kid gloves - the homeless alcoholic, those who have wandered away, the divorced and remarried, etc. - as well we should.

But when it comes to the traditionalists - no sympathy, indulgence or excuses are allowed - they must be put in their place. Generalizations that would be dismissed as cruel and unfair for any other group are accepted at face value. Their concerns, questions, and frustrations are just the result of their own stubbornness and stupidity. The fact they have been betrayed, abuses, ignored, vilified and dismissed for forty years (which may help explain some of their more unpleasant habits) is of no consequence - they must think and act like everyone else or they are just asking for it.

I have met trads who are bitter, others who are joyful (some both at different times!), liberals who are stupid, others who are brilliant, self-centered and generous moderates. Heck, I've even met homeless people who are spiteful, hateful, angry and fearful one day - and thankful, gentle, and loving the next. Pretty much like most of us most of the time. Which is to say that most people and most groups defy easy characterization.

(Though I love the EF I don't consider my self a traditionalist and have not experienced what they have gone through, so I beg for no special pleading.)

francis

The attention toward an 'imbalance' is a ruse.

The REAL issue is the liturgy, not the imperfect saints who celebrate it. At the cost of a few who are extreme, we take the view that the Latin Mass is a "problem"? Well then, what about the imbalanced NO'ers who parade around in costumes or dance around the altar? Is THAT the same scenario on the other foot? No, we cannot (in the very loosely paraphrased words of BXVI) "bash what was once and will ALWAYS be holy and sacred and expect to escape without a scar."

This is just another example of how diabollical disorientation is running rampant.

JulieColl

I've encountered mean, spiteful Catholics (and many good and kind Catholics) in every sector of the Church, but I think Catholics in different ecclesiastical milieus, just like in political associations, tend to have their own peculiar predilections and vices. However, how to bring conversion and healing? Do you constantly beat people over the head with a stick or do you show them a little of the compassion and mercy you lavish on other types of sinners?

Contrast the current approach with that of this pope's predecessor. In his letter to the bishops of the world about the SSPX, Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged that there were serious faults in that traditionalist community [faults which might possibly afflict other traditional communities] but instead of insulting and berating them, asked for patience and tolerance:

Should not we, as good educators, also be capable of overlooking various faults and making every effort to open up broader vistas? And should we not admit that some unpleasant things have also emerged in Church circles? At times one gets the impression that our society needs to have at least one group to which no tolerance may be shown; which one can easily attack and hate. And should someone dare to approach them – in this case the Pope – he too loses any right to tolerance; he too can be treated hatefully, without misgiving or restraint

.

He goes on to implore Catholics to heed the words of St. Paul to the Galatians, excellent advice, a warning which I think applies directly to those in leadership now and to all of us (myself included):

Dear Brothers, during the days when I first had the idea of writing this letter, by chance, during a visit to the Roman Seminary, I had to interpret and comment on Galatians 5:13-15. I was surprised at the directness with which that passage speaks to us about the present moment: "Do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself’. But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." I am always tempted to see these words as another of the rhetorical excesses which we occasionally find in Saint Paul. To some extent that may also be the case. But sad to say, this "biting and devouring" also exists in the Church today, as expression of a poorly understood freedom. Should we be surprised that we too are no better than the Galatians? That at the very least we are threatened by the same temptations? That we must always learn anew the proper use of freedom? And that we must always learn anew the supreme priority, which is love?

PaixGioiaAmor

It seems pretty clear what the Pope was talking about; specific instances of seminarians who have no business being priests being admitted solely because they seem "orthodox." We don't need any more nut jobs getting ordained. I don't care what the nut job believes about the liturgy or how "faithful" he is. The 70's gave us enough nut jobs as priests, which brought us the sex abuse crisis. (Of course there were good and holy men ordained in the 70's as well! Let's not forget them.) Let's not make the same mistakes again.

I saw no condemnation of traditional liturgy there.

He then referred to the case of some bishops who accepted "traditionalist" seminarians who were kicked out of other dioceses, without finding out information on them, because "they presented themselves very well, very devout."

This seems CRYSTAL clear to me. If someone gets kicked out of another diocese, you should smell smoke and investigate to see if there's a fire.

As we walk run as Church towards deep and global renovation (cf. Cardinal Maradiaga) let's throw out all the bad traddies and rabbits and open the doors to all those folks on the periphery clamoring and breaking down the doors to get in.

YES! I mean, I'm not sure we have to "throw out" anyone, but the second part of your sentence is right on! Let's open the doors to those on the periphery. It's what the Pope is asking for any what Jesus did.

I remember someone, on some website or message board - it might have been JulieColl, actually, but I don't remember one way or the other - bemoaned "It seems like among the clergy of my diocese a homeschooling, traditionalist mother is the lowest of the low; they would rather welcome in a drug addicted prostitute over me!"

And I remember thinking "YES! How lovely!" That was EXACLTY HOW JESUS ACTED; he sought out the ones SOCIETY thought of as the "lowest of the low" and shunned the holy people.

JulieColl

Yes, I did say that, and I'll say it again. To be specific, why am I treated like garbage, in fact, insulted, ignored and pushed around by a local pastor and bishop just because I ask for a Latin Mass at my local parish????

BTW, I'm all for treating drug-addicted prostitutes with open arms and have actually done so on many occasions, as well as homeless alcoholics and street people whom my saintly parents would invite home for dinner so please don't lecture me on that score, PGA. The pope isn't the only person in the Catholic Church who has love and compassion for those on the peripheries.

But why the double standard? Shouldn't the drug-addicted prostitute and myself be treated with EQUAL concern, courtesy and respect? That was the point I was trying to make. Granted, we all ought to reach out immediately and unceasingly to prostitutes and derelicts and social lepers, but shouldn't some small attempt also be made on the part of Church authorities to reach out to tradition-minded Catholics who are also on the peripheries in some respect?

P.S. I know I'm belaboring the point, but this is what I'm trying to say: while the drug-addicted prostitute--- let's call her Darla, since that's the name of the dear sweet lady I remember from my childhood---might be a social leper, in some circles at least, esp. in my own home diocese, it's no exaggeration to say that my local bishop treats me as a church leper. While Darla's needs and concerns are far greater than mine, and she deserves much more love and attention than I do, I also deserve less than a kick in the pants for asking my pastor and bishop for a Latin Mass and for blowing the whistle on certain activities in my parish. There, I said it, and I hope that makes my earlier post clear.

JulieColl

Forgive me if I continue this thought: What's so Christ-like about lumping all of your ideological opponents into the same category and branding them as hypocrites and doctors of the law and elitist, selfish pigs, etc? Is that really what Jesus did? Didn't he also encourage those who were trying to be good and humble and faithful? What are the Beatitudes about?

I'm not saying that people like myself whom the Holy Father persistently targets in his ~~screeds~~ sermons---people who still value the Ten Commandments and want to protect the integrity of the Blessed Sacrament---are all saints, but are we all evil, stone-hearted monsters?

Salieri

FWIW: I have decided that unless the Pope says "By virtue of our Apostolic Authority, and in our duty of Confirming the Brethren, We solemnly Drecree, Define, and Say XYZ, and that this must be held by all Christians in perpetuity. And that anyone whosoever who denies this shall be anathema" or such like, I'm just not going to pay attention.

I don't know if the Pope is condemning the "Reform of the Reform" or those "Saints" who support it, or if those "Scare Quotes" are from the Pope or from Zenit, in fact, I don't really know what on earth the Pope actually is saying here, apart from making yet another generalization about all "traditionalists", so I'm just not going to waste my time reading all of this rambling off-the-cuff blah-blah.

bonniebede

My sympathies tend towards Salieris points , but I am trying to be respectful and honouring of the Pope for what he is.
So ....he urges us to be kind to 'those on the peripheries' = I pray for the Pope and his intentions. He seems fairly out on the peripheries at the moment, so maybe he is just asking for the help of our prayers.
For the rest... this too shall pass....

Salieri

Also, I think that the Extraordinary Ordinary (a.k.a. H.E. Robert C. Morlino, Bishop of Madison, Wisc.) was right in his interview on The World Over: (if I may paraphrase:) when Pope Francis is speaking, especially, off-the-cuff, to a certain group of people, he is only speaking to that group of people in front of him, not, per se, to the Universal Church. (Apologies if I mis-represent the good Bishop, but this is what I took away from it.)

Salieri

I hope no one gets me wrong: The Chair of Peter is very dear to me, and all that it stands for; I do pray for the Pope, especially that he might get better at 'Pope-ing'. And I certainly do not hope that anything terrible should befall His Holiness. But, I am trying to approach this particular papacy as a peasant would have the reign of Pope John XXII (that's 22)---mainly for my own sanity---and that peasant would probably only have heard an official magisterial pronouncement read out loud by the priest at Sunday Mass.

Adam Wood

I think Catholics in different ecclesiastical milieus, just like in political associations, tend to have their own peculiar predilections and vices.

Good Catholics are similar everywhere.

Bad Catholics are bad in weirdly specific ways.

When someone condemns the bad, weird behavior that is specific to your group, it can feel like an attack on your group. Sometime it isn't ("I like most Republicans, but Sarah Palin is wacko."), and sometime it is ("All you republicans are crazy. As an example - Sarah Palin.").

I think we should always try to be charitable in interpreting how people mean things, while at the same time trying ourselves not to say things that could be interpreted poorly. That Pope Francis seems to repeatedly violate the Robustness principle doesn't mean we should also.

I do pray for the Pope, especially that he might get better at 'Pope-ing'.

Quite. And likewise we should all pray that we get better at laying.

M. Jackson Osborn

The lovely thing about Holy Father Francis is that he is not a prisoner of his office and of traditions, and traditional ways, that aren't Traditions. It is high time (actually, centuries late) that the powers that be in the Vatican bureaucracy and its shamelessly political machinery and infighting, be brought to heel and made the servant of him who is supposed to be its master. The Pope is the Pope, not those who are supposed to be his cohorts in governing the Church with the mind of Christ. It is gratifying to see the pope reminding everybody that the 'unpardonable sins' of some are no more (nor less) horrid that the 'pardonable sins' of most people who think of themselves as normative. Sin is sin. Let none think otherwise. All of us, every last one, are sinners. This is, is it not, why we, without judgment, welcome into our parishes those who are living in adultery, commiting abortions, intruding into the marriages of others, and in numberless other unseemly conditions; and, truth be known, these sins are not a whit prettier than those of others whom we like to think are worse. I only regret that we don't have Francis and Benedict rolled into one. This would be about as good as it could get.

Jani

Give them an inch and they WILL take a mile.

JulieColl

I applaud the noble sentiments above and think you're all taking this marvelously well, considering that Pope Francis has just verbally undercut all the fine work of the CMAA and Adoremus and of many fine musicians doing their best to realize the reform of the reform. It's amazing to see how in one little phrase,"the reform of the reform . . . was mistaken" this Pope has effectively blown up that edifice so many have been building in good faith, brick by brick, for a number of years.

And let us not forget how so many fine young seminarians who have also played by the rules and have hoped someday to realize the mutual enrichment plan of Benedict and the goals of his new liturgical movement have had their hopes dashed and worse, have suddenly become suspect and persons to be watched most carefully for signs of mental and emotional imbalance, likely to commit the most perverse actions, if we are to take the words of the pope seriously.

Is that the key---don't take the Pope seriously when he drops verbal bombs like this and pretend that all is well? I'm doing my best to soldier on like a good little laywoman, but this is all a bit much for me to shake off with a laugh and a joke. I'll keep trying, though.

God bless you all.

Adam Wood

I'll keep trying, though.

Indeed.
What other options are there?

M. Jackson Osborn

Well said, Julie -
Aside from the aspects of Francis' papacy that I find refreshing are those, which you allude to, which are the occasion of great dismay, extreme disappointment. It is sad to see our holy father take note of a few bad apples in one camp and not notice the bad apples in the other camp. What have we come to if the bishop of one diocese won't ordain a man who normally wears a cassock whilst the bishop of the neighbouring diocese won't ordain a man who never wears one. We might assume that the cassock wearer has a deeper spirituality and Catholic understanding than the other man. But history has provided us with examples aplenty that wearing a cassock is not, in itself, indicative of sanctity. Nor, of course, is the not wearing of one.

Perhaps Francis is attempting to say something along these lines. Perhaps he wasn't. However, he should have been more fair and not have implied that tendencies to spiritual (or psychological) imbalances were the monopoly of one side or the other! They certainly are not.

CharlesW

Is that the key---don't take the Pope seriously when he drops verbal bombs like this and pretend that all is well?

One of the nicer things about being an Eastern Catholic is that I don't always take that office so seriously to begin with. When you invest everything concerning your faith in that office, you really can't complain when it turns around and bites you. Popes come, popes go, blessed be the name of the Lord.

dad29

"the reform of the reform . . . was mistaken"

Yah, well, the Chairman of the Latin Mass Society in England said as much, too. He thinks that RotR is un-achievable because the OF is far too text-centric in opposition to the EF which is structurally inclusive of sight, sound (music), architecture and art.

(That's a broad-stroke reduction. The essays appear here: http://pblosser.blogspot.com/2015/02/is-reform-of-reform-dead.html (scroll to the bottom of the essay to find links 1-5)

Altogether, a very interesting viewpoint.

Chrism

Here's the link to the five-part series on the death of the Reform of the Reform called, "The Death of the Reform of the Reform", by LMS Chairman Joseph Shaw.

Adam Wood

series on the death of the Reform of the Reform called, "The Death of the Reform of the Reform"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShapedLikeItself

JulieColl

Thanks so much for the link to Mr. Shaws' series.

If the reform of the reform is officially dead, it seems like we should mark the moment in some way. Someone should write a poem. Sorry if this seems like gallows humor. I really don't know what else to say.

My heart really goes out to the seminarians whom the Pope wants closely scrutinized. I suppose they're being told right now to get rid of their cassocks and told to burn the traditional Breviary and Liber hidden under the bed.

How do they feel this morning having been told by the Pope that they "are placing a mortgage on the Church"?

I suppose about the same way I and many other Cathoic moms felt being told we were rabbits. : )

Wonder who's up next on the papal chopping block?

Salieri

And likewise we should all pray that we get better at laying.

PaixGioiaAmor

I applaud the noble sentiments above and think you're all taking this marvelously well, considering that Pope Francis has just verbally undercut all the fine work of the CMAA and Adoremus and of many fine musicians doing their best to realize the reform of the reform. It's amazing to see how in one little phrase,"the reform of the reform . . . was mistaken" this Pope has effectively blown up that edifice so many have been building in good faith, brick by brick, for a number of years.

Except that that's not what he's done; he was speaking pretty clearly about specific problems. He wasn't changing and superceding Sacrosanctum Concilium and removing all references to chant from Chuch documents, removing the organ as the church's preferred instrument, calling for hootenany masses as the norm - or anything similar.

And let us not forget how so many fine young seminarians who have also played by the rules and have hoped someday to realize the mutual enrichment plan of Benedict and the goals of his new liturgical movement have had their hopes dashed and worse, have suddenly become suspect and persons to be watched most carefully for signs of mental and emotional imbalance, likely to commit the most perverse actions, if we are to take the words of the pope seriously.

Except that this isn't what he said; I don't think he was saying that any seminarian who likes good liturgy needs to be watched because he's likely to commit the most perverse actions. He was saying that there definately are SOME "traditionalist" seminarians who have apparent issues. I'd agree with him on that. You know the "type;" we've talked about a certain subset with problems here before.

My heart really goes out to the seminarians whom the Pope wants closely scrutinized. I suppose they're being told right now to get rid of their cassocks and told to burn the traditional Breviary and Liber hidden under the bed.

This is hyperbole at its finest.

Prozac can work wonders; might I suggest you talk to your doctor?

JulieColl

Prozac can work wonders; might I suggest you talk to your doctor?

I find such an ad hominem, actually an ad mulierem, comment extremely hurtful and offensive and unworthy of this forum. Should you descend into such base tactics again, I will have to call Pope Francis and urge that you be immediately investigated. : )

PaixGioiaAmor

It's not an ad hominem attack; You seem quite depressed and also seem to not be comprehending the reality of the situation.

JulieColl

Oh, I'm not depressed now, darling. Thanks for the concern, though.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/02/important-cardinal-sarah-detachment-of.html?m=1

This cheered me right up. Far better than Prozac.

PaixGioiaAmor

Glad that you're feeling better.

In general, (not because of the last article you referenced) might I suggest reading less rorate-caeli? It seems to be about the least balanced, most alarmist, and most distorting site out there today.

JulieColl

There you go again, PGA, with those ad hominem attacks. That's alright, though. You're just imitating the example of more exalted personages, and I'm developing a pretty tough skin.

That being said, I challenge you to substantiate just one of the claims you have made about Rorate Caeli.

kevinf

"Reform of the reform dead"?

Hardly. Perspective counts. I began this work as a professional in 1983. At that time, my circle of music friends in the Roman rite were pressing the latest and greatest from GIA and other publishers. I can remember organizing a workshop in Nashville, TN to invite of all people,David Haas, to come speak to us. It was a day attended by over 350 people. But in the back of the room an old priest showed me a chant book, an old LU. He knew that I had a love for the music of Charles Tournemire and he wanted me to see its source material. I remember that he showed it to some other people and they chuckled saying," Well, we have no use for that anymore." But I never forgot that moment, because something inside of me connected.

Flash forward: in the meantime: we have seen the publishing of music for the Roman rite make a paradigm shift. Resources for the chant have blossomed. The work of many here and other places have seen a change in how the Roman rite has progressed. THE MR3 has assisted many to re-think about things. B16's writings are not going away anytime soon. The open discussion of how "bad" Catholic music has been has become much more public. Publications that I never would have thought to exist are now regularly available. The fact that this group exists is a tremendous move.

Yeah, you can spin your wheels, whine, bitch and complain about what Francis says today or will say tomorrow. Rorate Caeli and others will come and go as will Pray Tell. But the fact remains that the major shift in resources (which equals money...not much but some) and the gatherings of this group and others say otherwise to ROTR being dead.

And yes, it will be a slow go in terms of change. I am 53 and I know I will not see where we should be. Does that deter me...not in the least. And I pray that Francis will do what he can in terms of change in the Curia and other things. He will not be Pope forever and the pastors of the 70s and 80s formation are moving through the "biological solution".

So, no I do not think the ROTR is dead. After all, its the Church's liturgy, not some trendy theological tome. Hey, when I was being formed liberation theology was the rage. Don't hear about it these days much. And in the last five years I have read more about chant, Solesmes and many other things. Hmm....

Dead,hardly. Killed by Pope Francis...unlikely.

M. Jackson Osborn

While I disagree with Julie and agree with Kevin that the Reform of the Reform is not dead, I do think most strongly that the above remarks toward Julie are crass, impolite, and ungentlemanly. They call for a sincere apology. I suppose that I could go on, but that will do for now.

The Reform of the Reform is not dead, but neither is 'the "spirit" of Vatican II'. Let us ever be vigilant.

It would be nice if our holy father employed a greater sense of fair play and balance when pointing out problems that, in fact, afflict all, not just a certain target group. They afflict all because all are equally human, and wherever there are humans there will be human error as well as human sanctity.

bonniebede

It would be nice if our holy father employed a greater sense of fair play and balance when pointing out problems that, in fact, afflict all, not just a certain target group. They afflict all because all are equally human, and where there are humans there will be human error as well as human sanctity.

Just a thought. Perhaps this is a time of testing and purifying allowed by the Holy Spirit of those who are most vital to the Lord's plans for the future?

chonak

I'm contacting the offending user.

melofluent

Pope Francis has just verbally undercut all the fine work of the CMAA and Adoremus and of many fine musicians doing their best to realize the reform of the reform. It's amazing to see how in one little phrase,"the reform of the reform . . . was mistaken" this Pope has effectively blown up that edifice so many have been building in good faith, brick by brick, for a number of years.

Julie, our friend Kevin from the Bourbon Lands' eloquent and precise statement sums up what I pretty much take away from this kerfuffle. We should remember that for all intents and purposes some of our own have also pulled the plug on RotR, not the least of whom are Rv.Dr. Ed Schaefer and Fr. Thomas Kocik. And to a certain point, when they publicly revealed that determination, their audience was as specifically interested as perhaps was the group HHF addresses in the reported remarks.
Personally, RotR will never die to me in my locale and tenure as long as I'm privileged to "minister" to the parish. I don't see, nor can I foretell if my current pastor has, any plans or desire to upset the mix, and yes there is a mix and will likely always have to be a mix. And hopefully, with a recent revelation to me by a vicar, we may be blessed with the ability to celebrate in the EF a ways down the road. But, as long as all politics are local, RotR will evolve here and there, and folks can vote with their feet.

JulieColl

Melo and Kevin, thank you so much for your spirited response and your fine analyses. You have given me new hope! I've seen so many reports of good movements going forward on the forum lately: the English propers, improved hymnody, more Gregorian chant, etc., and, like the little engine that could, let's hope and pray the ROTR has gained enough momentum already to keep going, no matter what.

Arthur Connick

The ROTR understood as restoring solemnity and verticality to the Mass within the parameters of the Paul VI missal seems to be alive and slowly growing, although still very much in a nascent phase. The ROTR understood as moving beyond the Paul VI missal to recover elements of the older form of the Mass seems to have died in the aftermath of Summorum Pontificum.

OraLabora

Interesting discussion. I am an oblate of a Benedictine monastery of the Solesmes congregation. The abbey (a 35 minute drive from home) still uses Gregorian chant for the Mass as well as Lauds and Vespers. The rest in French plainchant except for the Gregorian hymn at Vigils, Compline and the minor hours. I also sing in a small schola in Sherbrooke, QC. We've been swimming uphill for a long time before I heard of the ROTR; we rotate from parish to parish once a month. We are welcome in some parishes, pariahs in others. By and large, it often seems we receive the most positive comments from younger parishioners (or the very old... the VII generation, of which I am a part... not so much). I've also traveled to Benedictine monasteries in Europe. Chant and good liturgy are far from dead! Moreover the chant books for the post-conciliar Mass have been around for some time (the Graduale Romanum since 1974).

Most interesting to me however have been developments for the Liturgy of the Hours. Until 2008, if I wanted to chant the Divine Office according to the rubrics and calendar, I had to wrestle with an armful of chant books, jumping from book to book for different parts. It was clunky, tedious and lacked harmony. In 2008 the community of Saint Martin in France gave us Les Heures Grégoriennes, the entire diurnal Liturgy of the Hours in Latin Gregorian chant. In 2010, Solesmes produced Antiphonale Romanum II, which is the first tome (excluding the Liber Hymnarius) of the LOTH in Latin Gregorian chant, which covers Vespers of Sundays, feasts and solemnities throughout the year. It's an "official" chant book (LHG is intended for the use of St. Martin and is approved as such but can be used by anybody with concordat cum orginali). It's been a joy for me, to be able to chant everything from just one book, even though it means doing the 4-week LOTH rather than the 1-week Monastic Office our abbey uses. It's restored beauty and fluidity to my personal liturgy (which as an oblate I'm bound to recite, at least in part, every day).

So I'm not ready to purchase the casket for Gregorian chant just yet. Reading the comments of the Holy Father, I do believe he was addressing specific issues and not bashing all traditionalists, or traditional music, in general. I suspect some of the "confusion" we may be seeing with him are due to poor reporting and even worse translation. I attended the World Oblate's Congress in Rome in 2009, and an interpreter doing simultaneous translation of a speaker translated "we venerate the Virgin Mary" in French (my mother tongue), to "we worship the Virgin Mary" in English, causing a HUGE controversy that the poor speaker had to clear up later; the English-speaking oblates nearly ran him out of town after hearing his mis-translated words! And at the 2013 Congress which I also attended (as well as being on the Consultation committee that helped organize it), we did the entire liturgy in Latin. There were a few rough edges with the chant as it was an ad-hoc group put together that had little time to rehearse together but we deserved kudos for the effort.

Back to the Benedictine liturgy at our abbey, I agree with Arthur Connick that it's alive, but it's at more than a nascent phase in the monastic world: anybody who attends our (Ordinary Form) Mass there would experience a beautiful, solemn rite done with care, reverence and love, in modern but "vertical" and attractive church architecture of Benedictine simplicity and luminosity. The OF Mass as Sacrosanctum Concilium intended. And I KNOW they're not alone in that, as I've experienced the same in Italy and France.

Anybody in love with good liturgy should come and to a retreat at our abbey (or another one of the congregation), just to soak it up and perhaps get some ideas to take home to one's parish or diocese. Don't whinge about it, do something about it! (I do realize that most folks here are doing their part... but we can always seek resources to take things to the next level).

CharlesW

The ROTR understood as restoring solemnity and verticality to the Mass within the parameters of the Paul VI missal seems to be alive and slowly growing, although still very much in a nascent phase. The ROTR understood as moving beyond the Paul VI missal to recover elements of the older form of the Mass seems to have died in the aftermath of Summorum Pontificum.

That sums it up really well. The work at my parish has been focused on restoring solemnity to the current mass, not on attempting to duplicate the EF mass. There is an EF mass offered every week for those who want it - all 45 or so of them. The majority of our folks have little interest in it.

ryand

Pope Francis says,

The liturgy should help the faithful enter into God's mystery and to experience the wonder of encountering Christ

That means something maybe a little different from group to group, but I certainly think that the mystery of the Traditional Latin Mass has a place in that. So does the Ordinary Form, absolutely. So does the Byzantine Rite. Lots of different ways to enter into God's mystery, many ways to experience the solemnity and joy of the same mystery.

...

I doubt that the My Little Pony mass has a place in that, though. And with his comments about how the liturgy needs to be more vertical and less horizontal, less about seeing your friends at church and shaking hands, and more about encountering God on the altar, I am inclined to believe that the Holy Father would agree.

The liturgy is not of this world. Reading between the lines (of many different comments he's made), and perhaps with a bit of wishful thinking, I believe that Pope Francis is more on our side than the doomsdayers feel he is. While the My Little Pony mass is a dated experience of worldly things, there are a handful of traditionalists who are just as worldly about their liturgies. The liturgy is, in a sense, their own "higher power." The fabric of their lace and the ingredients of their incense are idols which they can, at times, seemingly (or actually, but only they know their own hearts), place at the center of their own focus and worship. Those people exist and I'm positive that those are the groups Pope Francis is targeting with certain comments.

It's a media issue, and a political issue between "factions" in the church and in local parishes. Those with an agenda against good-faith traditional liturgy have been chomping at the bit for fodder to lodge against those annoying RotR types with their pesky church documents. Now a few papal comments, out of context, can fuel their own agenda. And, that sort of thing seems to get the spotlight, and not events like Pope Francis celebrating ad orientem.

kevinf

ROTR understood as moving beyond the Paul VI missal to recover elements of the older form of the Mass seems to have died in the aftermath of Summorum Pontificum.

I disagree. I think that some of those elements are already in place with the ars celebrandi of many of the younger clergy. Two that I know have studied the EF at St. John Cantius and incorporate some elements of the anaphora into the OF.

A friend of mine who is a scholar of SP argues that the more outward elements will be the last in a dialogue that may well go 50 years.

Just saying..

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