asking about Lent and Advent Ordinarium
  • jefflokanata
    Posts: 35
    Is there any other choice other than Missa XVII?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jeff,

    Appointed Ordinaries aren't appointed in the sense of cast in granite. Mass XVII doesn't have a Gloria, but does have a Benedicamus Domino, and so is suited to Advent and Lent.

    Thanked by 2hilluminar jefflokanata
  • jefflokanata
    Posts: 35
    Can we use other Ordinarium , and sing without Gloria?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,779
    Can we use other Ordinarium , and sing without Gloria?


    Yes, within reason... For those that sing the Benedicamus ..., tones for these can be found for most of the Ordinaries in older Kyriale / L.U. etc.

    Of course you can also mix and match...

    N.B. A look in older books c. 1900 will find a different selection and pairing of Ordinaries.
    Thanked by 1jefflokanata
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355
    One of my favorite bits from the Liber Usualis says it all (at the end of the Kyriale section):

    "This Ordinary is NOT meant to be a matter of hard and fast rule: chants from one Mass may be used together with those from others, the Ferial Masses excepted. In the same way, in order to add greater solemnity, one or more of the following “Chants ad libitum” may be employed." (translation from Liber Usualis.)

    For example, my schola sang Kyrie ad libitum Rector cosmi pie a couple of times last month, with the rest from Missa de Angelis.

    jefflokanata, if you're talking about weekday Masses, it would be better to stick with Mass XVIII.
    Thanked by 1jefflokanata
  • jefflokanata
    Posts: 35
    Thank you for the answers

    about Ite Missa Est or Benedicamus Domino,
    which one we choose in the lent period?

    our priest checked in his Ordo EF 2015 , Dom II , Quadragesimae , it is said "ite Missa est".
    But when I checked to encyclopaedia , if there is no Gloria, use Benedicamus Domino instead Ite Missa est.

    Which one we use? (there will be EF mass in Sexagesimae and Dom. II Quadragesimae)
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,779
    Traditionally the Benedicamus Domino was used in the Season of Septuagesima, Lent, Advent etc. One of the changes c. 1962 was to change this to the Ite Missa est...

    We follow the older Rubrics and so have the Benedicamus...
    Thanked by 1jefflokanata
  • jefflokanata
    Posts: 35
    I am a bit confused . EF mass we using John XXIII Rubric (1962), don't we?

    Our priest who celebrate EF mass is Diocesan Priest .
    So we are all learning , because we got limited resource in our country , since there is no Order who specialist in EF mass nor new generation priest who trained in EF mass.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    When in doubt ask the priest if he'd like to follow the '62 missal rubrics or earlier rubrics.
    Thanked by 1jefflokanata
  • jefflokanata
    Posts: 35
    He said '62 missal rubrics.

    so.. we might change lyric Benedicamus to Ite missa est?
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    Seeing as at the EF Mass the deacon or celebrant says/sings Benedicamus Domino or Ite missa est, and the choir responds the same either way, I don't understand why jefflokanata is a decision-maker in this matter.
  • jefflokanata
    Posts: 35
    The problem is, in my Graduale Romanum, Mass XVII , doesn't contain Ite Misa Est.
    And our priest want to sing Ite Misa Est. We teach our priest to sing , he want to do that.
    I got confused.
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    The 1961 edition of the Graduale Romanum posted at musicasacra.com proposes Ite missa est from Mass XV for use with Mass XVII. But as the other posters have indicated, your priest can sing any of the other melodies.
    Thanked by 1jefflokanata
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    Mass XVII doesn't have a Gloria, but does have a Benedicamus Domino, and so is suited to Advent and Lent.


    The "Benedicamus" was eliminated except for 2 occasions in the 1962 Missal. It is NOT used for all Sundays of Advent and Lent anymore.
    Thanked by 1jefflokanata
  • jefflokanata
    Posts: 35
    Thank you very much for all reply and answer .

    So in conclusion : we can use any Ordinarium in Advent & Lent except Gloria, we should match it with theme of the weeks.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,291
    Plus there are Ite melodies ad libitum.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    It's interesting to note that the Cistercian books give what the Romans call "Mass XI (Dominicis per annum)" for the Sanctus and Agnus during Advent & Lent, and vice versa: what Romans have for Sanctus & Agnus in "Mass XVII (Adventus & Quadragesimae)" the Cistercians have for Sundays per annum.

    The "Benedicamus" was eliminated except for 2 occasions in the 1962 Missal. It is NOT used for all Sundays of Advent and Lent anymore

    Which is an impoverishment of the Traditional Missal, not an improvement. But that's another topic.
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