commas in music text
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    When I sing music I give relevance to comma's meaning I take a quick pause which generally means I sneak a quick breath. However, in some hymns this doesn't always seem to be the case. Example: Come, Holy Ghost, Creator blest, and in our hearts take up thy rest; or My country tis of thee, sweet land of liberty. I usually take a breath after Ghost. Many times, the breath I take, whether desirable or not by the music director, is how I learned to sing a hymn from those who came before me.

    So, my question is, if there are comma's in the music text, should you pay attention to them just like you would if you were reading the text? Is there a consensuses among musicians, composers and the like?





  • Yes.
    At least nearly always.
    This is done less often in the US than in Britain, where one will hear it done to great effect in most English cathedral and collegiate choirs.
    Often the grammar does not follow the musical phrase when singing hymn tunes. When this happens the grammar takes precedence. If there is a series of commas, one may wish to pick the best one(s) to observe lest the effect is too choppy. Otherwise sing as you would read a sentence. This means singing legato and without a break even when going from one musical phrase or line of the tune to the next if there is no punctuation in the text.

    In your example above, I would sing with a very slight enunciation for the first comma, but a complete break for the next two, like this:
    Come, Holy Ghost,| Creator blest,| and in our hearts take up thy rest...
    This causes a greater consciousness that one is, in fact, addressing the Holy Ghost, saying something nice about him, and requesting something of him. It makes of the text the purposeful supplication that it is rather than the string of words that it all too often becomes.

    The idea is to sing the text just as if one were reading a poem, which, of course, is what a hymn is. In fact, it is a good exercise to have one's choir read the stanzas of the hymns they sing, observing every punctuation and eliding lines when there isn't punctuation, just as one would in reading poetry, then to sing it the same way.

    With consistent and careful playing of the organ I have even accustomed entire congregations to sing in this manner. It really makes hymn singing much more meaningful and exciting.

    Many hymns, 'Once in royal David's city' comes to mind, present quite a fascinating array of places to elide from one musical phrase to the next, or to break within one.
    A text really comes to life when sung in this manner, and realising that what one is singing really does have a carefully written and intentionally expressed meaning can make singing of hymns much more fruitful and gladsome.

    (And, if certain persons sang and played hymns with as much care and respect for their literary content as they do when singing other parts of the mass or the lectionary, they would have much more respect for their hymnody - and would be more careful in their choice of hymns.)

  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    The idea is to sing the text just as if one were reading a poem... observing every punctuation and eliding lines when there isn't punctuation, just as one would in reading poetry
    This is one of those things that make me ambivalent about English choirs, and especially the would-be English choirs one hears on the Prairie Home Companion. Hymn tunes have their own phrasing and need to breathe; the farthest I've been willing to go to accommodate meaning is rehearsing "O God, our help" (ST ANNE) so we don't get 'as forgotten as a dream'
    They fly forgotten || as a dream_
    dies at the op'ning day.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • One might add that one can always tell if an organist is singing the text or even thinking about it as he or she drives through an entire stanza without missing a beat and! hardly allows time for breath or reflection before rushing from one stanza to the next. Such people have no business being church musicians because they aren't, actually.

    Getting back to commas, I often observe them in Gregorian tunes as well as modern ones.

    Comprehending and communicating the literary beauty and the sense of the text always has primacy.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Don9of11
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Punctuation is often more grammatical than musical. I don't pause at every comma but generally do allow time for breathing at major punctuation marks. I remind the choir that we are singing phrases, not specific words in isolation. Think speech set to music. Then there are the aging singers who have to breathe at every fourth word. I don't have a solution for that. Although it does surprise me that otherwise healthy people are willing to let their lung capacity diminish and do nothing about it.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Commas should be sung for sense. That said, there is a school of thought in Catholic hymn singing to sing phrases with a sense of arsis and thesis like chant (of course, this means the organ is subordinated to the needs of the vocal line - first conceiving how the hymn would best be sung a cappella). This is easier with certain tunes than others; then again, that's a reason some folks preferred certain tunes to others. Ted Marier comes to mind as a considered practitioner of this.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    In a hymn there are often tensions between musical and textual considerations, and this question is an excellent way to raise these.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    Then there are the aging singers who have to breathe at every fourth word. I don't have a solution for that. Although it does surprise me that otherwise healthy people are willing to let their lung capacity diminish and do nothing about it.


    I'm in my late 50's and the gentlemen tenor who sings next to me is 81 and so we developed a kind of system where if we both need to take a breath at least we try not to breath at the same place in the musical score unless of course it's called for. The majority of our choir consist of those aging singers, God love them all, who still come and commit the time, so I cut him a little break. I will be doing well when I hit my 80's if the younger man or woman next to me cut's me a break.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I have seen some amazing senior singers. The problem with some of mine, unfortunately, is that they studied years ago, have not kept up with practicing vocal exercises, think they are better than they are, and do little in the way of aerobic exercise. The best way I know of to feel and sing like an 80-year-old is to not do anything related to physical activity.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Before one worries too much about commas, perhaps one should first learn to use apostrophes correctly.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    To the substance, I break at commas where grammatically appropriate and musically acceptable. However, too many people fool themselves into thinking they are playing the text simply because they rest at every comma in the text! I must object to this rendering:
    Come, Holy Ghost,| Creator blest,| and in our hearts take up thy rest...

    There is no reason to separate out "creator blest." It is not an independent thought or phrase, but only an appositive to the preceding words. Not to mention the ugly choppiness of the resultant two-measure phrases.

    As a rule, I break every four measures, depending upon the melodic and grammatical phrase structure. If there is a comma, I weigh its function versus musicality of the sung/played melody. I will break (if musically appropriate) for new clauses or significantly long independent clauses. I also break for repetitions when tasteful, or for lists of particularly long (1.5 measures or more) words.

    Of course, everyone's hymn playing is different, and I am the last person to suggest that there is a correct and incorrect way to play hymns. However, I believe that simply watching for commas and pausing at each one is only mimicking text-singing, much as a parrot mimics speech. It is nothing to take pride in, and it would be better to play the tune through well five times than to engage in such inartistic fakery.
    Thanked by 2Salieri CHGiffen
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    (Is there a reason why I keep reading this thread title as "comas in music text"? No, there shouldn't be any comas.)

    To Gavin's comment above: I think in this particular instance we have a case of conditioned breathing on account of (some) (pre-conciliar) organists taking this hymn (I presume the tune is LAMBILLOTTE?) at a pace of roughly 'quarter = 20', necessitating a breath after ev'ry four notes:

    Come, Holy Gho----st, [gasp!] Crreeatorrrr Ble----st, [gasp] ... &c.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Before one worries too much about commas, perhaps one should first learn to use apostrophes correctly.


    And Gavin wins this thread.
    Thanked by 1jeffinpa
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    Before one worries too much about commas, perhaps one should first learn to use apostrophes correctly.
    Corrected!
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    (I presume the tune is LAMBILLOTTE?) at a pace of roughly 'quarter = 20', necessitating a breath after ev'ry four notes:
    Actually, it's from the Gather Hymnal and the harmony is by Richard Proulx and the harmony is yucky-poo (IMHO)







  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    LAMBILOTTE is meh.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    "That way lies madness" said the other reader at our house, reminding me of one of my first Sundays as organist when I spent enormous effort reharmonizing the last verse of "Eternal Spirit of the living Christ":

    Come with the strength I lack,
    bring vision clear Of human need;
    oh, give me eyes to see Fulfillment of my life in love outpoured:
    My life in you, O Christ;
    your love in me.

    The Lutheran Book of Worship (441) put this to ADORO TE (!) though it's hard to come up with any non-nonsensical tune.

    While I appreciate MJO's point about care in hymn choice, I remain on the prima la musica side. H82 chose (quite wisely imo) to amend the text rather than the tune (No. 698):
    Come with the vision and the strength I need
    To serve my God,[no breath] and all humanity;

    even though "fulfillment..." is now a sentence fragment.
  • There are other important organ hymn playing techniques to be mastered before one begins playing the commas. But you know that.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Is there a consensuses
    That's very well put ;-) The best suggestion we can make is that you begin trying to observe where conductors (especially your own!) indicate a breath, or breathe themselves, and make a study of your favorite art song singers.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    A particularly felicitous use of commas in Isaac Watt's incomparable hymn on the last line:

    Love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul (COMMA) my life (COMMA) my all.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5dEQMMa_pY
  • Felicitous, indeed!.
    This and many other such renditions illustrate the grammatical beauty laid bare, the poetic substance delivered, and the comprehending singer a crucible for communicating the sacred text in all its syntactical richness, spiritual depth, and linguistic flowering. There are times when observing every single comma would (or could) be choppy and somewhat artificial. There are, likewise, many more times when doing so is an admirable tour de force revealing the artistry of choir and choirmaster alike in presenting to all who hear the precious import of musically presented poetry. Commas, of course, may or may not be observed, singly or in series; but, whether they are or aren't the text must be delivered artfully and with aplomb, and they must be rehearsed with great care in order that the delivery sounds natural. Some other person's solution may not agree with mine: the important thing is that the solution is mastered and delivered with art, taste, and grace, the import of the text made explicit. (One might suggest, also, that this is a matter of excruciatingly artful diction as it is of punctuation: these go hand in hand.)

    My usual approach is to sing a text precisely in the manner in which it would be read by an orator, or one skilled in literary delivery. If the text can be read in a given way, it, likewise, may be sung in the same way, providing that the magister chori and his singers have the requisite talent. But, what may be delivered skillfully by one choir may be beyond the capabilities of another choir... or, its choirmaster.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I am not an organist. However, they frequently annoy me. Ergo, I have opinions on how they can annoy me less.

    A comma, or really any breath, should not (in metrical musical) interrupt the flow of the beat.
    The time spent breathing or pausing or whatnot either needs to be taken out of an existing beat, or added in as additional beats using whole multiples of the existing beat.

    Nothing kills a tempo quite like the addition of multiple pauses of indeterminate length.
  • I do indeed agree with Adam!
    This only adds to the musical rigour and choral teamwork necessary to perform grammar and punctuation as I believe is most seemly. One will note that on the recording of Rockingham, 'When I survey...', just above, the commas are most gracefully observed without interruption of the metrical continuum! Music and text is a marriage, and is one that requires extreme musical and literary sensitivity to be genuine.

    All composers have, in fact, not thought that such a marriage was fair to either 'partner'. Stravinsky, after Persephone and a few other efforts, became of the opinion that such union of music and text was ill-conceived and wrote no further examples thereof.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist