Female Altar Servers Part 2 - Burke is at it Again
  • http://ncronline.org/news/people/cardinal-raymond-burke-feminized-church-and-altar-girls-caused-priest-shortage

    So I really don't have a problem with all males serving. In fact, I think there's legitimate reasons for it when it is possible. At the same time, I'm pretty solidly centrist on this issue in that I also don't object to females doing it.

    Whatever your opinion on it might be - Here's Cardinal Burke:

    In the interview, Burke also blamed gay clergy for the church's sexual abuse crisis, saying priests "who were feminized and confused about their own sexual identity" were the ones who molested children.


    And

    Burke said he recalled "young men telling me that they were, in a certain way, frightened by marriage because of the radicalizing and self-focused attitudes of women that were emerging at that time. These young men were concerned that entering a marriage would simply not work because of a constant and insistent demanding of rights for women."


    But wait, there's more!

    "Apart from the priest, the sanctuary has become full of women," he said. "The activities in the parish and even the liturgy have been influenced by women and have become so feminine in many places that men do not want to get involved."

    Burke, a liturgical traditionalist and a doctrinal conservative, also said that "men need to dress and act like men in a way that is respectful to themselves, to women and to children."


    This is just ... stunning.

    I WANT to like Cardinal Burke; I really do. But I can see why Pope Francis pushed him into a non-position. And I have to ask, does he REALLY BELIEVE this junk? Or does he like to get a reaction? I suspect it might be a sick compulsion to get a reaction, a la Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, or Rachel Maddow.

    Or maybe I'm becoming more sympathetic to feminist ideas because after two little boys, I now have a two day old baby daughter. On second thought - no. I don't think that's it. I think the ideas in this article are just WAY out there.

    As always, let's discuss, but play nice.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Congratulations, Paix and Mrs. Amor!

    I'm not going to touch most of this, but I would like to address the third, liturgical quote.

    I don't think that the liturgy has become "feminized." I think it has become infantilized. I think men are rightly put off by the tragic downturn. Art has been lost. Poetry and choreography have been lost. All subtlety has just been flushed. But none of these tragedies reflect womanhood. They reflect bad ephemeral liturgical theories, institutionalized, one right after the other.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,050
    Its. Another. Religion. (article on Fr. Z.'s website... go read it)

    Yes, that’s how it ends.

    Just a shrug of the shoulders.

    It’s. Another. Religion.

    If it’s a religion at all.

    Plain and simple, Burke is holding to the truth. I pray and hope he stays there. The men still true to being men of the faith think the same.

    (Apodictically speaking, that is.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,282
    I don't think that the liturgy has become "feminized." I think it has become infantilized.


    This.

    Women have mostly left the church also.

    Assuming you start with equal numbers, if you do something that drives out 99% of men and 98% of women, you will have TWICE AS MANY WOMEN. Whatever else it is, it isn't a victory for the inclusion of women.
  • Agree with Kathy and Adam.
  • Thanks, Kathy.

    And yes, I agree so far too with the comments here.

    Francis - what is "the truth" here? Even you will concede that Burke isn't speaking on matters of Faith or morals.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    I'm fairly certain that if you look at the thousands of idiotic liturgical decisions that have been made in the last 50 years, 99.99% of them have been made not by women, but by clerics.

    Of one persuasion or another.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Richard Mix
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,050
    Sorry. What I am talking about in this instance is truth with a small 't', Kathy. I am not denying that the liturgy has also been infantilized, desecrated, destroyed (Deiss, Bugnini) and utterly changed into a new rite. (Ottaviani, Canon Hesse, etc.)

    So why would be we be surprised if Burke is saying this? Just add it to the list!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPPGz9NDFiY
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Many blessings and best wishes for the new baby, PGA!

    I read Cardinal Burke's candid remarks yesterday and so did most of my family, including some of our young adult boys. The consensus here was a feeling of gratitude to His Eminence for his candour and thoughtfulness. Of course, these are obviously his personal reflections and not de fide definitions, but we greatly appreciate his perspective.

    All things considered, and I'm speaking for my family members here, we would be happy to see a return to a traditional understanding of gender relations and traditional roles for men and women. From all that I've seen over the years, the net positive effect of radical feminization has been negligible.

    Actually, where all the growth, good news and building for the future is in the traditional orders: their seminaries and convents are full; lots of families with lots of children attend their Masses, and most of them are there because they want traditional Catholicism.

    So, while it might seem easy to dismiss Cardinal Burke now, the fact of the matter is that those places where radical feminism has been embraced are empty and barren, but those places which embrace traditional practices, including that of "the differentiated equality of the sexes," (cf. Cardinal Burke), that complementarity so well articulated by St. John Paul II are flourishing and have a wonderful future ahead of them.

    I think a far more serious discussion would be to analyze why the one is thriving and the other is dying.
  • PGA,

    Manifestly you wish to start a discussion about how crazy Cardinal Burke is. To be a "centrist", a "moderate" or whatever, means that you're eschewing extremes, and yet you blast Cardinal Burke not on the substance of what he says, but on the grounds that he's crazy. What, EXACTLY, do you think is crazy in what he wrote?

    Cheers,
    Chris
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Thanks, Francis.

    I think we ought to try to offer the conversation more than just exasperation, though. Put your thinking cap on. What can we do next?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Julie,

    I live not far from Catholic U. What you see in the dissertation stacks of the library, in philosophy and theology as well as nursing, are scores of scholarly works by women religious. This is from before the Council.

    The tradition-minded women's communities that are doing well are producing scholars as well.

    In musical leadership, this same pattern holds true. Three of the most productive men I know in sacred music credit women with their early training, from around the time of the Council.

    Musical leadership and highbrow scholarship are not "traditional" women's roles. Except in Pope Benedict's eyes, I suppose, since he canonized St. Hildegard and made her a doctor of the Church.



  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Sorry for the third comment in a row. But this is important.

    We can either adopt an easy-solution fell-swoop attitude towards the problems of the Church, or we can deal with reality.

    Besides the ridiculous sideswipe against women that the quoted remarks are, they do not reflect the reality of the situation.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Dear Kathy,

    I believe there is a difference between authentic Christian feminism and radical feminization. By speaking of "traditional roles" for women, I did not mean to eschew advanced education and scholarship for women in the least.

    There was significant progress along these lines well before the Council, even at the turn of the century. What I was referring to was the Gloria Steinem revolution which specifically "liberated" housewives and propelled mothers of young children into the workforce. What is really tragic is the ensuing economic configuration which has made it virtually impossible for a family to exist without two incomes, not to mention the "latchkey child" phenomenon which has had its own disastrous consequences.
  • I, for one, am happy to see that His Eminence has the courage to speak his mind on this. Many clergy do not, and that has had a deleterious effect on the Church as a whole. The infantilization/feminization discussion was also included in a previous post on this, so for further discourse, one could look up that other thread. It's more than that, of course, and part of the larger "anything goes" attitude in the Church nowadays: there is no apparent standard for what is right and what is wrong; you can go to one church and see something, but see something completely different at the one in the next town over, and both are considered correct.
  • I'd best just withdraw the comment. I can't post about it without being offensive in one way or another. The more I read over this topic here, the less I understand.

    [Noel, can you please try to bring a more substantial and specific comment? --admin]



  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    I agree, Julie.

    I remember when property values basically doubled or tripled with the women's back-to-work phenomenon, making staying at home nearly impossible.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Noel,

    Cool font stuff you got going on there! Well done.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    Kathy, thanks for bringing up the prodigious accomplishments of women religious in academia before the Council. They developed some wonderful pedagogical materials and were on the brink of making an enormous impact on local churches.

    I often marvel at the extensive network of churches, schools, hospitals, colleges, and motherhouses here on Long Island, now mostly defunct and some barely used before the winds of change swept so much away.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,050
    I think we ought to try to offer the conversation more than just exasperation, though. Put your thinking cap on. What can we do next?
    Well, I keep speaking out on things here, but most of it meets with "we don't want to hear your tiring diatribe".

    I cannot change the church as much as I cannot stop the eclipse of the sun. And if we think 'we' can mend the problems of our church and society by human means, we only fool ourselves. That is the modernist philosophy in a nut shell on the betterment of church and state, family and individual.

    There is only one thing we CAN do: we must appeal to heaven, and specifically to Our Dear Mother Mary. I truly believe that praying the rosary is one of our greatest weapons. Ave Maria.
    Thanked by 1TCJ
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    I truly believe that praying the rosary is one of our greatest weapons. Ave Maria.


    Agreed!
  • The video above is so said. God help the Catholic Church, the Church of Man is alive and well inside it spreading it's cancer. Cardinal Burke is right on target.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    (Just so everyone is aware, the Blessed Mother is a woman.)
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,050
    (Just so everyone is aware, the Blessed Mother is a woman.)
    LOL! Thank God! ...and a perfect model for the rest of them.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,282
    I remember when property values basically doubled or tripled with the women's back-to-work phenomenon, making staying at home nearly impossible.


    It wasn't the property that changed value, but the money.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Why? And why precisely then?
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,377
    Congratulations PGA and family!

    I'm in an OF parish. My daughters serve. They are not the only girls and there are boys/young men as well. Our last pastor did not have one young man, during his time as pastor enter the priesthood. He was a lovely man. He was holy and kind, but he had a laissez faire, anything goes attitude at Mass. Our new pastor, who is in favour of Latin, wonderful vestments, good sacred music etc. has quite a few young men going to "come and see" weekends at the seminary and contemplating a vocation to the priesthood.

    On another note, to ask women to go back to homemaking after getting a long involved education is probably unlikely. In Canada, there is a huge push for females in elected government positions. Full-time daycare and a need for double incomes are the norm and I constantly hear the phrase, "I'm a better mom if I'm working than if I'm at home with the kids all day."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,699
    Stay home and have kids and teach those girls their place. They don't belong on the altar. You need to veil yourself in public and -what's that? There is ankle showing below that long skirt. Make it longer lest you lead some man astray.

    On a more serious note, if you want to talk about property values and currency, delve into the real currency devaluation caused by the policies of the Federal Reserve.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,282
    Why? And why precisely then?


    Kathy - for the reason you enunciated: Women -- by default -- working. (Or, to put it in more neutral terms: the assumption that a two-adult household would have two full-time employed people working in it.)

    More money, evenly dispersed, meant people could spend more for the same resources, meaning prices went up, meaning the value of money went down.*

    And who suffered from that most? The poor.
    When one middle-class salary could pay for a middle-class life:
    - Poor and lower-class families could get ahead, and into the middle class, if both parents worked. Though neither one had enough earning potential on their own, they could sacrifice a bit (both of them working, which was a sacrifice) and get by.
    - Single mothers could work and, even without reaching a man's income level, get close (70%, 80% ?) enough to get by. (Whereas now --- a single parent has AT BEST 50% earning potential, and often much lower).


    *Easy credit does this too. Credit cards, home loans. AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE PRICE OF COLLEGE TUITION
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,437
    College tuition----the subject makes me break out in spots!! We have two at St. John's law school and three at the local state college. The last one is 12 so at least there will be some respite before she's in college. All of that on my husband's public school teacher's salary since I don't "work." (Ha, ha.)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,050
    What in heavens name gives ANYONE the impetus to pay 50k for a piece of paper saying you are a certified expert (in your field of study), and then spend 50 years working in SOME OTHER FIELD than the one you studied paying it back? Ludicrous.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,300
    So let me see if I have this right.

    It was the monetary policies of the USA’s Federal Reserve that led to currency devaluation, which led to more married women entering the labor force, which led to Gloria Stienem and the call for equal pay for the same jobs, which led to Pope St. John Paul II changing canon law in 1983 so that females were no longer barred from serving at Mass (and at less pay, I assume), which led to Cardinal Burke’s flame out and Julie’s breaking out in spots.

    Is that what you all are saying? If it is, how does it account for female altar servers in, say, Haiti?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    This whole thread saddens me, and diminishes the fecundity that is at the nexus of the Church. Does anyone acknowledge what St. Paul meant (pardon the association with Dr. Wills.)? Between the ill-timed screed of the good cardinal, and the incredibly stupid decision and subsequent coverage of Abp. Wenski's caveat, I have to wonder if we're all on some other planet, we're behaving like machines who've suddenly been gifted with consciousness but not an ounce of common sense, or what?- we're just tools in the grand plan to exacerbate the advent of the remnant church?
    PGA, I'm sympathetic, but you erred in judgment by buying into popular culture's (Yahoo/Huffpost/et al) debasement of the cardinal's intent. And yeah, he said it. So what?
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,699
    Is that what you all are saying? If it is, how does it account for female altar servers in, say, Haiti?


    No! That's kind of mixing monetary policy - bad as it sometimes is - with Roman Catholic idiosyncrasies. Probably no connection between the government's craziness and our own bungling. Although I will admit both bodies have a gift for shooting themselves in the foot, at times. LOL.

    Welcome to the Church of Charles. Send money. I can't save your soul but I can try to make you feel better about losing it. On eagles wings....hummmmm. Do you like banners? Send more money.
    Thanked by 2francis expeditus1
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,050
    It's hard to soar like an eagle when you are always hanging out with the turkeys.
    Thanked by 2Gavin TCJ
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,300
    "hanging out with turkeys" = the communion of saints?
    Thanked by 1Chrism
  • Just so everyone is aware, the Blessed Mother is a woman.

    True, true.
    And, one hastens to add: just so everyone is aware: the Son of God is a man.
    The feminists, alas, have of late aggressively played down and gendered out our Lord's manhood; but, true to themselves, they make much of our Lady's womanhood. One can't be blamed for noticing that multitudes of women have but one interest: women.
    Somehow they don't seem to like the fact that, absent men to conceive them, there would be no women.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Fr. Krisman,

    As long as you are commenting here, you are one of us. It's not you up above and over us. You are one of us.

    Unless of course the reason you come here is to be above and over us, and rather snotty.
    Thanked by 2Spriggo chonak
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    One can't be blamed for noticing that multitudes of women have but one interest: women.

    That sounds awfully boring.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,300
    Kathy, I absolutely agree with you.

    You should have addressed your remarks to francis, who always seems to view himself as above the rest of us.
  • Melo (so as not to confuse with Charles W) and PGA,

    While all the stuff about the Federal Reserve is interesting and all that, and heaps of scorn make for interesting rhetoric, you both assert that the Cardinal is crazy, without offering reasons why those of us who don't think he's crazy should agree with you. In the interest of having a discussion, the intelligent exchange of ideas... could you pinpoint what particularly makes you sure that he's crazy?

    And, since I've obviously missed a headline, what did Abp Wenski say which so has your dander up?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    There's a big difference between concern and disdain, Father. That's the distinction here.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    One can't be blamed for noticing that multitudes of women have but one interest: women.

    That sounds awfully boring.


    Keeps me entertained enough.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ben Yanke
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,282
    ronk:

    My little aside about inflation was that the expectation of two adults working in every household was ONE of the primary drivers of currency devaluation. Not the only one, for sure. Just one.

    (The connection between women's lib and Federal monetary policy is something for my more conspiracy-minded libertarian friends to theorize about. I'm sympathetic to this view, but mostly skeptical, because conspiracies suggest well-organized and careful planning, and I just don't think anyone was smart enough to pull that off.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I must say that I never had of Fr Krisman the impression that he was either snotty or disdainful. His insight and knowledge are an asset to this forum; not that, due to his frequent defense of a certain publisher's policies and standards, I always agree with him.
  • There is some truth, at least in my experience, in men not wanting to serve with or feeling uncomfortable among women. Is it just insecurity? Probably, but I've seen decline in male service once women take a more prominent role. That's been my experience in South Texas. Once again, your mileage may vary.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,612
    or confirmation bias.
  • Possibly.
  • The cut and paste way this was reported isn't too impressive. But it served a typical purpose- to cause division. Who knows all the cardinal said, though the way it's laid out leaves me scratching my head. Kinda like Francis...

    I think the point about distinguishing between feminization vs. infantilization of Church life is spot on. To confuse the two is insulting and unhelpful.

    Certainly a large portion of feminism has brought destruction to family life. Who can deny its murderous fruits? But it doesn't have the force to ruin everything. So to blame women alone- or even mostly- for the vocation crisis is odd and most unchivalrous.

    Stop the blame game and start building up the Church.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Chris,
    I am amused truly at your (misinterpreted) attempt to get my goat, but if you re-read and consider what I said, not one iota of it inferred the cardinal's opinion was "crazy." Ergo, that is your opinion, not mine. Chris, you're intellectually discriminating enough to know that Cdl. Burke, whom I regard sentimentally as being as "popularly" misunderstood as B16, no small complliment that, suffers from the misfortune of having his remarks splayed in this most unfortunate of news cycle days/weeks inwhich the secular media takes glee and hubris. I expect you will acknowledge that I not at all suggested Cdl. Burke's opinion as "crazy." That was your unfortunate misinterpretation of my remark.
    Regarding Abp. Wenski- he made secular targeted headlines by interpretation that should any, any archdiocesan employee express any opinion supportive of same-sex "marriage" via any media, that employee's work status would be automatically endangered. Try to keep up.
    This is the face of institutional Catholicism at this very moment, rather than the headlines of 2005 when beloved Benedict XVI made his scholarly observations of the similarities between 14c imperial Islam vis a vis Europe and the events of recent decades to recent days.
    This is Roman fiddling while the City of God is burning.
    So, please get some perspective, and train it elsewhere than my meager observations.
    Your fellow Californian,
    CC
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,653
    It was the monetary policies of the USA’s Federal Reserve that led to currency devaluation, which led to more married women entering the labor force, which led to Gloria Stienem and the call for equal pay for the same jobs


    No, it was not the FRB. It was "Equal Opportunity" legislation from LBJ and the (D) Congress at the time, combined with the widespread use of The Pill and the "liberation" fantasy: that women were far better off in careers than as home-makers.

    Another commenter already mentioned that more-or-less doubling the available workforce reduced the value of money--and the value of workers--which then led to the need, not want, for dual-income homes. It's Econ 101.

    Remember that and you'll "have it straight", Father.

    Thanked by 2ronkrisman CHGiffen