Using a recorder for Gregorian Chant
  • d_j
    Posts: 21
    Hello all, new here and new to chant.

    I am considering buying a tenor recorder for chant, mostly to help with intervals and to get the "tune" of the chant. Has anyone used a recorder for this? I basically know little of recorders at the moment, and don't know for sure if this will be of help. Does anyone have any experience with doing so and if it would indeed be of help?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Welcome! In typical performance practice, chant would be done either a capella or with accompaniment from an organ. I couldn't tell from your post, were you planning on using it to help learn it, or as something to play while someone else is singing it at a Mass or concert or such?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,795
    It will quite certainly be a help in learning intervals, and is rather more portable than a tenor viol. A treble or alto recorder is much cheaper though!
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    When I was in high school there was a family who played recorder... SATB... it was AMAZING. They sounded like 8' stops on a small pipe organ. I think your idea is a good one. It would probably be less of a crutch than a keyboard.
  • The simple answer is: YES!

    The recorder has been used for centuries to give pitch and demonstrate melodies. Alto or Soprano might be the preferred pitch level and easier for male singers to hear and get a pitch from and, as Richard Mix says, is much cheaper. For some reason they are easier to play than the lower-pitched ones, unless you have excellent wind-control, which I do not. When I tried performing on a bass one it made a sound that was laughable in a serious piece.

    The recorder can play a second part when learning two part music and even be played along with the second part until they have confidence.

    [purple type means humor or a joke, which includes gentle jibes to other list members]
    In normal performance practice, chant may be done even accompanied by classical guitar, Magnus Chord Organ, accordion or ocarina. Even tuned beer bottles may be used, but should be hidden to avoid any impropriety. However, the player should wear a bowtie.

    As Canadash has said, the recorder can sound like an organ. A nicely-voiced organ flute on flexible winding can sound like a recorder, which makes it wonderful to play.

    Welcome to the group, visit and post often!
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    It's interesting to read about rehersal practice various places. In our western culture were used to the piano and organ being used/available for rehearsal.

    In pre-revolutionary Russia the common instrument for choir masters to demonstrate parts, etc. was apparently the violin!
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    About 55 years ago, my first Liber was in modern notation, and I did use a recorder to work out the tunes. However, there was always the problem of the non-moveable doh. Then, as a gracious gift from our Redemptorist pastor, I received a Liber using the traditional notation.

    The use of the "square notes" opened up for me the ease of sight reading the pitches and rhythms of Gregorian Chant. I do find that I can most effectively learn a chant by gently whistling it according to its indicated tonal patterns and rhythm.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    Organ flutes are much closer in tone to recorders than to modern flutes. I have a tenor recorder and some of the reaches between holes can put a really painful kink in your hands. The smaller ones are easier to handle.
  • Yes. I've used a recorder for exactly that purpose, especially useful when I've forgotten my pitch pipe and the organ console is too far away to conveniently get a pitch.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,473
    In pre-revolutionary Russia the common instrument for choir masters to demonstrate parts, etc. was apparently the violin!


    WAS IT VIOLINS IN 19th CENTURY RUSSIA?!
    REALLY IT WAS?!
    This is amazing.
  • Perhaps it was double basses: have you heard how low some of them boys can go?

  • I don't understand all these references to XIXth century Russia.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    Alex Riggle had a blog called "The Onion Dome" for a number of years. Father Vasiliy was a priest of an off-the-record Russian Orthodox splinter group. When confronted with anything new, he would exclaim that it wasn't done in 19th century Russia, and therefore, "is outrage!"

    http://theoniondome.com/
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,291
    Giovanni Vianini regularly uses a flute or recorder for the melody before he sings the chant in his Youtube videos.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507

    I don't understand all these references to XIXth century Russia.
    Jackson, my sense is it's a "meme"--that is, a consistent use of one playful expression--that has an outside reference and also illustrates a point.

    I think the idea is to imagine yourself on a liturgy committee or a parish staff or simply at a coffee and piroshky hour after Liturgy in a Russian Orthodox church. People are complaining about the radical liturgical changes that seem to be everywhere. In slightly broken English, they pound their shoes on the table in protest and say, "Was it liturgical dance in 19th century Russia? Was not! Is outrage!"

    You can transpose this entire scenario into any religious group, but for whatever reason it seems most fun in Russian.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • WAS IT VIOLINS IN 19th CENTURY RUSSIA?!
    REALLY IT WAS?!

    There were few, if any, organs. Or Guitars.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    It be more fun in Russian. Babushka approve. Is not outrage!
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    Regarding the use of the recorder, I used to do this when I needed it, when I was learning to read chant. I would not recommend it, or videos, or whatever, as a habit. It's better to learn to read and that takes fumbling through.

    What I would recommend is consistently trying to read through first in a do-re-mi way, and then checking with recorder, piano, Giovanni Vianini or what have you. Then go back and read it again. Then confirm that you've got it by an instrument or video. Try to challenge yourself to do it on your own as much as possible, with the objective check when you need it.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • d_j
    Posts: 21
    Thanks all for the welcome and the responses. I got the idea from the above mentioned Giovanni Vianini, assuming that he was using a recorder. But I have to agree with Kathy, using the simple solfege is probably the best way in the end to learn my intervals. My only goal is to chant the Benedictine Office and hymns as in the 1934 Antiphonale, which should be relatively easy as compared to the Mass chants I understand (the chanting would only be between myself, four walls, and God... I croak like a frog... maybe this will improve with practice? I dunno, never sung before). I was just wanting to get away from any electronic device that I could use for intonation as well as the for playing the rest of the piece, and figured a recorder was a good way to go, and relatively easy as well.

    I just may tune some beer bottles some night and see what happens!
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    The reference to "19th-century Russia" comes from the Eastern Orthodox humor website "The Onion Dome", whose advice columnist "Father Vasiliy" responded with offense to anything not done in 19th-century Russia. For example:
    Dear Father Vasiliy,

    My college roommate, who is also an Orthodox Christian, is currently dating a Buddhist. Is this right?

    Signed, Concerned in Cleveland

    Dear Concerned:

    Is outrage! Was it Orthodox dating of non-Orthodox in Nineteenth Century Russia? (I mean for ordinary people, not for Romanovs.) No it was not!

    Signed, Father Vasiliy
    ___________________


    Alas, most of the Father Vasiliy columns are no longer on-line, but only available in book form.
  • d_j
    Posts: 21
    On second thought, I think instead, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, will tune some vodka bottles some night.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Decades ago (1990 thru 1994) I was a Dominican brother living in a priory. The chapel had several soprano recorders floating around the stalls. Each week at non-sunday non-feast morning midday evening nite prayers a different brother played the two-to-four-measure tunes (four to sixteen notes) immediately before the cantor started each psalm or canticle. A few brothers learned notes and fingerings to join in the rotation.

    Go for it.