The Catholic church is not alone in stumbling when dealing with translations.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611

    Nashville Opera will perform The Man who Mistook his Wife for a Hat in the original language, English, but English translations will be projected on a screen above the stage. With these Supertitles, audiences can experience the beauty of opera in the original language, yet still understand the meaning of all that is being sung.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Adam Wood ZacPB189
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Priceless!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Years ago, the NY City Opera used titling even for works in English.
    Dorothy Uris, the doyenne of English diction in this country, blamed it on the architecture of the State Theater, as it was then called, (I suspect it's the Taco Bell Theater by now, or something.)
    The rallying cry for one funding push was, "we have to fix this theater for English!" (Apparently no one cared about unintelligible French or Italian...)

    I have to admit, I need subtitles sometimes when watching British tv.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    It's an almost-rare acoustic where English subtitles are not prudent to provide. Even with a choir with perfect diction, it can still sound like "Russian" to a congregation unless the text is very well known by congregants.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I recently attended (English) Mass at the Oakland Cathedral of Christ the Light.
    Subtitles would have been very helpful.
    Also, I'm not sure why the choir bothered singing anything in English. It sounded exactly the same as the stuff they sang in Latin.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    AW, you are aware that Rudy is a member of this forum?
    So, are you saying that diction or the ambience of the cathedral was problematic?
    And how are things in Gloccamora, I mean Bezerkley?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The acoustic of the room is the problem, if one would call it that.

    I'm not sure it is of the utmost importance to understand the text of choral music, and the text was provided in the programs.

    It was hard to understand spoken things as well, especially the homily.
    I am of the opinion that the acoustic issue could have been a boon rather than a problem if the lectors and priest worked with it instead of letting the microphones do all the work. You have to speak differently in a building like that, and they did not.

    The choir was phenomenal, BTW - and the programming was excellent.
    -Tietze Introit Hymn
    -Gregorian Offertory + Motet
    -Gregorian Communion w/English verses + Motet
    -Solid recessional hymn (don't remember what it was, but it was something well known)
    (I don't remember what they used for the Ordinary or the Resp. Psalm).

    The organ was TOO LOUD, in my opinion - but I am told pretty much everyone thinks that, and that it is the organ's fault, not the organist.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Adam Wood: organ was TOO LOUD

    Where did you sit (which side, how far from sanctuary, where in pew)?
    Any speakers nearby?
    What percentage of pews were occupied?
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Can organ BE too loud?

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I've yet to ever experience an organ being too loud. Also I loved attending Mass at the Oakland Cathedral... There are few other places I would go if given all of the options in the world.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The organ was TOO LOUD, in my opinion - but I am told pretty much everyone thinks that, and that it is the organ's fault, not the organist.


    There is no such thing, and I know that Francis will agree, as an organ that is too loud - just organists who are unable or unwilling to judge how loud to play under the circumstances.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I was sitting about half-way back, on the left side, immediately next to the center aisle.
    The organ was quiet and lovely when it was trying to be quiet and lovely. But then when being strong and stout-hearted for hymn accompaniment it was so loud I couldn't hear myself sing, let alone anyone else. (Congregational singing was quite lackluster, it seemed.)

    Several skilled organists I know in this area (Episcopalians, mostly, FWIW) said they feel the organ is too loud and too large for the space.

    There were probably 200 people there, but it felt empty. (The space is cavernous.)

    The choral singing and the chanting were amazing.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    When a church is full, each person is equivalent to an open window - sound loss is tremendous. [Helmholtz]

    If an organ is designed for playing at Christmas and Easter and other major services, it will be louder when it is played when the room is not full.

    If not, you'd be complaining that the organ was too soft on Christmas and Easter...and at major services.

    You can have it both ways - but it merely requires an organist who understands their job and know how to do it.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    I was viewing a Houghton Hall exhibit at Houston's museum last summer and was approached by man I did not know who called me by name. He explained that he attended mass at UST's St Basil's Chapel and liked it when I played... 'when you play', he said, 'I don't need my hearing aid'. We both chuckled and I explained briefly that I played in accordance with text and place in the mass, and that some people really do like to hear 'full organ', while others prefer it soft. 'Well, I like it loud', he said.

    Actually, Noel is spot on with his assertion that there does not exist an organ that is too loud. Some organists (usually sophomoric students and would-be-musicians who like to think they are making a big impression) play too loudly at certain times, often at all times. An organ that is incapable of a very strong timbre relative to the space in which it is is really not much of an instrument. Other types who play too loud are like unto those 'cantors' who think the people won't sing unless they sing into the microphone! They imagine that the noise that they are making is causing the people to sing. Actually, it isn't; nor would they know whether or not the people were singing because they are so thrilled listening to themselves!

    Judgment is the key. What is the text of the hymn or part of the ordinary? At times full organ, or full swell, or solo trumpet is appropriate. At other times a more prayerful sound is demanded. The various stanzas of any given hymn might each require a different sound. Parts of Gloria or Sanctus beg for a more celebratory sound, while other parts of the same are more contemplative. One should strive to accustom one's congregation to match the tone of the organ when it is communicating great joy and praise with a full sound, and yet to follow it softly but precisely when only an 8 and 4 foot flute reflects the text. I have had congregations that I could lead (not follow! but lead!) with a mere 8' lieblich gedect. Be imaginative! And!, give your people credit!

    But, back to the initial point: an organ is never too loud: the person playing it may be woefully injudicious. (Then, on the other hand, there are always those people who just don't wish to be woken up! In such cases the problem is not with the organ or the organist, but with those people.)
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Isn't that organ around 92 ranks or so? I am trying to remember if that is what I read, since I haven't been to the new cathedral to hear it. In any event, there should be enough variety in the instrument for all occasions. Organs are usually not "too loud" in design but are played too loudly for existing conditions. In a huge building with 100 people present, full organ will likely be too loud for the conditions. It makes me wonder why small congregations in large buildings don't have mass in a smaller chapel.

    I play a small instrument scaled for the building, but still have to adjust volume for the varying mass attendances. At some masses I rarely use more than some of the swell stops. At others, the building is full so I can use the reeds and Great principals- rather, I have to use stronger ranks to support singing if I want to be heard. It's all a balancing act.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    CharlesW mentions ranks...a 92 rank organ and a 20 rank organ in the same room could and should be about the same loudness...the 92 rank would be richer in tone quality and variety.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    CharlesW mentions ranks...a 92 rank organ and a 20 rank organ in the same room could and should be about the same loudness...the 92 rank would be richer in tone quality and variety.


    And different in range. The bigger instrument would more like have 32' stops, maybe even an earth-shaking Bombarde or high pressure Great trumpet. Those large reeds can really put out volume that a small instrument can simply not match.
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