All Are Welcome!.. Really?
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,656
    ...and the music's not all that great, either.
  • Many are welcome.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,727
    Some are welcome. Others, not so much.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,300
    This Sunday’s gospel reading (Mt 22:1-14) provides another take on the “All Are Welcome” theme: “Many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    I would have to say that “All are safely gathered in, ere the winter storms begin” does not mean “In other words, ‘All are welcome!’”

    One has only to read the entirety of Henry Alford’s hymn to see that the text actually reads, “All [i.e., the harvest] is safely gathered in…” And the “wholesome grain and pure,” the “fruitful ears” are not garnered until the tares have first been separated and cast into the fire.

    Jesus told a number of parables about the heavenly banquet. And, yes, all are welcome, all are invited. And while this welcoming is the first step in evangelization, it is far from being the only step. In this weekend’s gospel the invitees still must put on the Lord Jesus Christ, the proper garment for the heavenly banquet. Putting on the Lord Jesus Christ involves repentance, yes, but there is so much more required besides repentance in our imitation of Christ.

    There is nothing in either Alford’s “Come, Ye Thankful People, Come” or in Haugen’s “All Are Welcome” which espouses anything that smacks of a theology of “cheap grace.”
    1 Come, ye thankful people, come,
    raise the song of harvest home;
    all is safely gathered in,
    ere the winter storms begin.
    God our Maker doth provide
    for our wants to be supplied;
    come to God's own temple, come,
    raise the song of harvest home.

    2 All the world is God's own field,
    fruit as praise to God we yield;
    wheat and tares together sown
    are to joy or sorrow grown;
    first the blade and then the ear,
    then the full corn shall appear;
    Lord of harvest, grant that we
    wholesome grain and pure may be.

    3 For the Lord our God shall come,
    and shall take the harvest home;
    from the field shall in that day
    all offenses purge away,
    giving angels charge at last
    in the fire the tares to cast;
    but the fruitful ears to store
    in the garner evermore.

    4 Even so, Lord, quickly come,
    bring thy final harvest home;
    gather thou thy people in,
    free from sorrow, free from sin,
    there, forever purified,
    in thy presence to abide;
    come, with all thine angels, come,
    raise the glorious harvest home.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,282
    But Fr. K - you're missing the point. Why think reasonably through what a text actually says when you can get hysterical about what you imagine the people singing it must be thinking?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,300
    Yes, Adam, how foolish of me.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Salieri
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    Here's the real point. We (in the US) have fallen for a false charity, a false acceptance, and a false repentance. We think 'Love' trumps all, even our unchanging, unconverted sinful actions from day to day, and the priests do little to warn us, push us into the confessional and guide the sheep away from the dangerous precipice that will swallow their souls.

    “All are welcome!” in these countries is code for “We are tolerant here. We don’t judge anyone. Whatever lifestyle choices you make are good. This is your truth. We affirm you in it.”

    The real crime is that everyone is welcome EXCEPT Catholics who believe and live the whole truth of the faith. They will not be tolerated.
  • And none of that is what either hymn actually says.
    Thanked by 2Spriggo Gavin
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,283
    I think Adam & Fr. K. have just summed up at least 94% of the threads on this Forum.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,283
    And none of that is what either hymn actually says.

    PGA: play the record backward!
  • Yep. "Heresy" abounds in the minds of some.

    PGA: play the record backward!


    Ohhhhhhhh! YES! Thank you.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • This board is such an odd place, overall. It's the only place in the world where I'm likely to be found making utterances that sound like APOLOGETICS for songs like "All Are Welcome," if only because I'm a fierce believer of being intellectually honest.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,283
    Confessions of a Self-absorbed, Neopalagian, Crypo-Lefebvrite:

    I do tend to agree with Francisco non Papa on many things. And I think that the "All are welcome" dictum has taken on a life of its own in Am-Church - particularly among the so-called liberal crowd. As a priest I know says, "Liberals are very welcoming...unless you disagree with them", and I find this to be true of many "Catholic liberals", they are open and tolerant of everything, except the perennial teaching of Holy Mother Church. As Francis says: All are indeed welcome, except Catholics.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I think Adam & Fr. K. have just summed up at least 94% of the threads on this Forum.

    Good call, Salieri. "Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble....tremble."
    Caritas et veritas is a two way street.
  • The persecution complex that "traditional" Catholics are developing with this Pope is amusing.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    Alford's hymn has a strongly eschatological sense.

    Haugen's hymn has a strongly congregational sense.

    The two are totally unrelated except for maybe the word "all."
  • All are welcome, just like at a field hospital (are all welcome there?). All are expected to get better or die there, too. A hospital that does nothing but confirm that someone is sick and says that's OK isn't really a hospital, is it?
  • Why think reasonably through what a text actually says when you can get hysterical about what you imagine the people singing it must be thinking?

    As my dad, a teacher for over 50 years, used to say, "It's not what you teach, it's what they learn."

    My experience is that different people can come away with very different ideas of what "the text actually says." We all know that "look beyond the bread you eat" or "not in some heaven light years away" are (ahem) perfectly orthodox, but it's a fair question to ask how the unwashed in the pews understand it.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    The persecution complex that "traditional" Catholics are developing with this Pope is amusing.
    PGA... the complex goes back to the lions... and there are many popes who did more harm than good for the church. It isn't popes who are the main problem, it's that the people don't know what is right or wrong to be able to correct the popes.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,530
    However the song was intended, "All Are Welcome" seems to have been taken as a sort of anthem by Christians who consider themselves "open and affirming". It's on this list:
    http://www.choralnet.org/view/220898

    Here, a doctrinal dissenter says it has "crystallized" "the hopes of LGBT Catholics":
    http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/lgbt-catholics-hope-synod-family-will-lead-welcome-all

    Here, Lutherans quote it in a similar vein: http://www.zionulc.com/about.html
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,113
    So is, oddly enough, the Durufle Ubi Caritas.
    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • PGA, Fr Krisman, others,

    I'm going to try to reword what I think I hear Francis (posting here, not living in the Vatican) saying:

    Pope John Paul II wrote beautifully about what the liturgy should be, even as Archbishop Marini was busy dismantling both the liturgy and the Holy Father's credibility. Pope Paul VI required assent to Humanae Vitae but then reinstated disciplined priests without requiring their assent, making the Cardinal Archbishop of Washington look silly. Canon 915 says .... and yet a Cardinal who says otherwise is promoted, while one who defends the canon is pushed out. All this when the Pope is "conservative" ... makes one wonder what the enemies of the Church can do when they are handed language which allows them to license to do all manner of other, new harm.


    Is that about right, Francis?

  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    CG-Z:

    Yea, your are right. I don't think I will ever be living in the Vatican.

    I have been pushed out numerous times because I believe in the OHCAF.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,113
    I believe in Ohio Cow Armed Forces as well. I expect the Vatican would not approve either.
  • Re: what Chonak said, I think there also must be a rule somewhere that if there's a women's "ordination," the opening song must be "All Are Welcome." I'd embed the video I've seen that fits this rule, but I'd like to remain in your good graces.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • As a woman if I ever went through a fake ordination ceremony, I think I would like to do it in the Extraordinary Form. that would confuse everybody.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,300
    But why would you even entertain the thought of going through a fake ordination ceremony, even to come up with a snarky comment? Sacrilege is no joking matter.
    Thanked by 2MarkThompson Gavin
  • G
    Posts: 1,383
    Look at him, he dines with prostitute an tax collectors....
    As a woman if I ever went through a fake ordination ceremony, I think I would like to do it in the Extraordinary Form. that would confuse everybody.

    I spent the first few decades of my life quite certain that I would be able to be ordained in the Church one day; and that I would celebrate ad orientem, and that when I became a pastor I would promote the use of a great deal of Latin.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987

    Sacrilege is no joking matter.


    Contemptuous scornful laughter--if we lose that we might as well give up altogether
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,530
    Well, nobody needs to be too censorious: that's part of my job here.

    And even Saint Paul made wisecracks involving sacred rites, as when he said, "I hope the knife slips" (Gal. 5:12, paraphrased).

  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,036
    This reminds me of the several stories about Padre Pio and confession. Sometimes he would throw people out of the confession box if he sensed that they were not sincere. Or on several occasion, he would slap the 'penitent' telling them not to waste his time until they were sincere about repenting.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Sorry if it seemed sacrilegious too you, not intended. Might be Irish humour which does not translate well culturally.
    Laughter sometimes gives you the courage to keep going, especially when other things tempt one to despair.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,727
    Laughter sometimes gives you the courage to keep going, especially when other things tempt one to despair.


    True. I don't know how anyone could survive in Catholic music without a good sense of humor.
    Thanked by 2francis bonniebede
  • Maureen
    Posts: 646
    The first problem with Haugen's song is a lack of capitalization. "Let us build a house where love can dwell" should be "where Love can dwell." It's God's house, not a generic emotion or a generic virtue's house.

    The second problem is that the lyric is subjunctive. Yeah, if we build it really nice, maybe God can dwell there. Maybe. Because He's not everywhere already. The only subjunctive should be, "If God allows us to build Him a house, we should get on it right away."

    You can go line by line, and it's not openly heretical. But the tone is just so... off. It's presumptuous. To seek to dare to dream God's reign? Um, He's already doing that Himself, thank you. We claim the faith of Jesus? Jesus did that, and pretty bloodily too. The general tone is that Jesus did all the work, but we take all the credit. Smugness, possibly coupled with looking down on anyone outside our parish.

    Also, it's just hard to sing, and the esses are in annoying places.

    Finally, there's not any discernable eschatology in the song. It has no future hope, other than the hope that someday humans will seek to dare to dream to put God on a throne somewhere, since His reign is nothing but a renewable dream at present. There are hopes and dreams and visions and prophets, but these are building components and staffers, not going anywhere.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Now that is how to examine a song/hymn's text! Thank you, Maureen.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,727
    Let us build a home where the buffalo roam
    and the deer and antelope play...

    All are welcome....

    I like my text better than his. LOL.
    Thanked by 2francis bonniebede
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,282
    where the buffalo roam
    and the deer and antelope play...


    You're thinking of "Old Rugged Cross"
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,727
    On a hill faraway
    stood an old Chevrolet.
    It was battered and covered with rust....
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    So I turned in the keys
    and purchased a Ford
    A vehicle that I can trust!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Isle fly aweigh Sweet Jesus, Aisle fly away in the mourning
    Hwhen ah dye, hahlaylooYAW, buy, buy, buy
    I'll flies a way.

    Oh, brother, where art thou?
    And who's the goshdarned Paterfamilias 'round hyeer, anyways, Da-nyah-beet?
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,727
    The church's one foundation
    is gifts of checks and cash.
    That spring from guilty Catholics
    who dipped into their stash.
    But diocesan accountants
    keep watch with jaundiced eye.
    To steal your hard earned savings
    when you eventually die.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    So flee the cash foundation
    And join the motley crew
    Who live in caves down under
    And drink th'authentic brew
    They sing the chant of ages
    And live the bygone rules
    That Nu-Church has relinquished
    In favor of the fools.

  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,987
    I will cherish that old Model T
    Till I run it right into the ground
    It's the only car made for me
    And its bearings are all of them sound.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    O give me a home
    Where the scholas do roam
    Where there's beer and the organists play
    Where seldom is heard
    Any Haugen or Hurd
    Where a person can actually pray.

    Faith, Hope, Charity
    O when will you come back to me?
    When the dogma comes back
    From that wandering pack
    We'll all be much better, you'll see.
  • rollingrj
    Posts: 263
    I don't think the work release program for the hymn writers is succeeding.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    rollingrj

    We are going to create a very "nu" kind of hymnal! :0
  • G
    Posts: 1,383
    You can go line by line, and it's not openly heretical. But the tone is just so... off. It's presumptuous.
    It 's the national anthem of the sovereign state of Pelagia.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • In case anyone missed Fr. Zuhlsdorf's version:

    The Church’s one foundation is B-I-N-G-O.
    It is the one salvation from all the debt we owe.
    And when foreclosure threatens we’ll play it every night,
    for bingo pays the mortgage but also heat and light.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Ona more serious note, the associate pastor of our cathedral had this to say on "All Are Welcome" Sunday - for all the stuff that's messed up in our diocese, we are blessed to have a priest like him where he is.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GIxcQnU1w4
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,069
    SIR

    A true priest. God bless and protect him.