Did what I could...sad...:(
  • Hello my name is Cynthia
    I have used this forum before. I did not become a member I just browsed for the same questions I had and found great results here.

    I am not really sure where to post this, but here it is.
    I did what I could that is all I can say.

    When I was 15 I learned to play the guitar to help out my community because we did not have a Spanish choir. So I learned the basics and started to play at church in Spanish.

    2 years ago my priest asked me if I can go and help another community who needed the help. I have learned to be obedient so I did go there.
    It was a mistake.

    I got there and like many Spanish communities, they were disorganized, and there were a lot of negative things in that community.

    I found out that the priest there had their community abandoned and only celebrated masses and would confess, but for anything else he had two people who represented him and were in charge of everything there; they were not nice people they were actually very mean and very controlling.

    I wish that the Spanish community would be better. For example in the choir, the Spanish community does not really care that much about the choir. They don’t care to learn anymore. They don’t know how to read music and can’t carry out a tune (they are tone deaf). I have always felt that I have been the odd ball. Trying for my fellow Spanish community choir members to learn to play and sing by note as it sounds way better. However, they refused.

    So I started the choir. I tried to teach them what God had given me, but they were not really trying as much as I would like them to have tried. In two years they were not able to learn the basic chords in guitar…they just did not have that kind of discipline nor did they give the instrument enough practice time. This annoyed me and I told them to please do their homework and study. They did not get better; in two years you would think that they would know at least the chords, but they did not know.
    I had no support from anyone.

    Then just a few months back I had this lady in the choir who tried to boss me around. She learned a bit and was trying to boss me around in a very mean way. I am 25 now and no longer a teen, but an adult. I told her to stop commanding me to play what she wanted; especially in the rude way she did.
    She hated me for that.

    Then she and another choir member accused me of being too harsh. They said I needed to have more patience. It really hurt because when they want they leave the ministry; I had to play by myself because they did not go for one thing or another. The ministry to them is not that important yet they accused and criticized me for not having enough patience.
    It is true though that I do not posses patience. I can’t seem to love people the way they are especially when they are mean and say hurtful things to me.

    I had no support from the father there. He did not support me. I told him I had been having issues and if he could help. Yet he did nothing about it. He actually supported this controlling annoying freak lady.
    I left. I quit. That is all I could do. I told the father I would leave and he said Ok thank you.

    I feel bad that I quit and left things that way, but I just had no support.

    I hope that God never again sends me to the Spanish choir community.

    So I am back at my old parish and wish never to be involved in the Spanish choir.

    Right now I am just taking a break and having more time with my family. In the future I hope to join the English community members instead.

    So what do you guys think?

    I feel so bad, but at the same time relief.
    Too much choir drama for me and my heart could not take it anymore.
    Thanked by 2Ioannes Andreades G
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Church music sucks sometimes.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Shake the dust from your sandals and pray for something better. I think all of us have had to do exactly that at one time or another in our careers.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Please, don't feel badly. None of this is your fault.

    I would suggest finding an excellent Catholic community with a fantastic choir and learn as much as you can as a choir member. I'm sure a choir would love to have you. This will give you a break from leading and time to learn more. But take the time to find a very good choir, not just any choir. You can ask here. There are many people here with a good deal of knowledge of the choirs and churches in America. God bless.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Cyndy what CharlesW & canadash say is good advice. It will also help to pray for discernment about this, especially as you reach out to seek new avenues for your musical gifts. And, always, seek to improve and hone your musical skills, branching out where possible. You'll be all the better for it.

    By the way, welcome to the Forum, Cyndy!

    Chuck
  • they were not nice people they were actually very mean and very controlling.


    All to @#$% common in too many parishes....the sign of a weak priest.
  • I am bawling my eyes out! I had not cried until now.
    (T.T)
    Thank you guys so much! I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders. I told God that I had tried my best yet it wasn't enough for them.

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen francis
  • Gavin, Church music does suck sometimes. Not all the time as I love to sing to the Lord, but with this experience I felt that it really did suck.

    Thanks so much for your post.
  • Charles Thanks for your comforting reply.
    "Shake the dust from your sandals and pray for something better. I think all of us have had to do exactly that at one time or another in our careers."

    Will do!!!
    So I guess this is just another thing I had to go through huh? It sucks...:)
  • Canadash
    "Please, don't feel badly. None of this is your fault."
    Your comment has me in tears. I guess deep down I thought it was all my fault.
    Thanks :)
    I can continue walking forward now.
  • Chuck
    Thanks for the encouraging words.
    I plan to take singing lessons in the future as well as getting a minor in music. I want to learn even more and now that I had this ugly experience happen I have time to do what I really want to do :)
  • Thanks Chuck I am glad to be a member! I hope that I learn more from here and meet more of you guys.

  • Noel
    "All to @#$% common in too many parishes....the sign of a weak priest."

    I was very honest and did talk to this priest directly about this exact same problem.

    The issue of him not being in the parish, but having others to "represent him". I told him that those people where bias and were difficult to work with.

    I went as far as asking him why he had abandoned his people? I crossed the line there and apologized, but too late I was very frustrated and such a thing came out from my mouth before I knew it.

    His reply was....I think you need to leave earlier than expected. Next week can be your last.

    My reply was "that works perfectly".

    I don't want to judge so I won't say anything more.

    I am done with that community and will never again go back there.
    They did not have a set choir for years and now I know why.

    So yea you are correct. I just pray to God that he grants me the gift of pure love so that I may love people just the way they are....instead of trying to change people I think I need to change first, however, what I went through was torture.
  • Thanks guys once again I am relieved and will continue to walk forward.

    Hugs and kisses!!!
    In Gods Love (^_^)
    Cyndy
  • Cyndy,

    Welcome to the forum.

    May I recommend a retreat -- not a military style retreat, mind--- or something of a convalescent hospital? Musically, spiritually and liturgically speaking you need a break from all the goofiness of the kind of church music you've endured.

    Here's my idea: find yourself a Mass in the extraordinary form. Don't try to "get involved": just be there, to worship God. Low Mass; High Mass; Solemn High Mass? Doesn't matter. You need to be allowed to worship God without someone offering to beat you soundly around the ears. Then find a parish where you can take a holy hour in relative peace and tranquility. At least one poster on this forum is going to flame me (or report me or something) for saying it, but since you seek peace, seek peace. The Ordinary Form, whatever its blessings, doesn't include space for peace, quiet, and silent prayer.

    God bless,

    Chris
    Thanked by 2musiccyndy Felicity
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Dear Cyndy,

    You tried your best, and that is all God asks of us. I agree with what canadash says: find a really good Catholic choir and sing with them. You'll learn a lot, you'll meet a bunch of great people, and you won't have to worry about being "in charge."

    Where are you located? (You don't have to be more specific than you're comfortable with.) Maybe a CMAA member is near you. We've got to support each other, and you sound like you might be in need of a little support, if you don't mind me saying so!

    God bless you for your work and efforts. Now it's time to move on to something better.
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Cyndy, I'm the third Charles on the forum (Charlie). Your story was truly heartbreaking, but worse rings true for reasons I don't wish to discuss here.
    If you are located in the California region, I'd be more than happy to meet with you through the net or otherwise and help you locate some parishes who are pastorally efficient.
    Adelante, si?
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • Chris thank you for your post.

    I greatly appreciate your response; you should not get flagged you are expressing your thoughts and I greatly appreciate them.

    Thank you for caring about me. I do plan on just going to mass and not getting involved; I think right now I am too hurt. I am taking a long break; during this break though I do plan to get music classes in and singing lessons. I don't want to quit music all together I love music.

    We do have adoration here in my parish. The Holy sacrament is exposed and I do go there to pray and be with him. I am consecrated to the "Sacred Blood of Jesus Christ" and pray a lot. I like to pray that is all that I can do...for myself and for others right now.

    You are correct... I seek peace, but I am not sure why. I think I feel that I let him down. That I should have endured more, but I could not take it anymore. I think this is why I feel this way.
  • Yea I think I am in need of support irishtenor. I live in Logmont Colorado USA.

    Right now I am taking a long break, but when I played and sang last Sunday I knew that I wanted to be in the choir; that this was my place to be in.

    Later though I had thoughts of never returning to any choir. Ugh....I do need support so thank you.
  • melofluent I would welcome any information; I am done working with people who do not appreciate me and see me as a beggar; I am a person who strives to work hard and become a better person.

    As I said I am taking a break to mend my heart, but I know that God will restore it.

    I never wanted to be "lead" I never asked for this....Sometimes I don't understand God and it is very frustrating. I wanted to establish different responsibilities between all the members of the choir so that we would work as a team, but that was just my wishful thinking.

    "Adelante, si?" Your comment hurts my heart. I don't know if I can. I will try. My heart is completely butchered.

    I had already previous wounds from my own priest in my local parish that were just mending, but then this happened.

    I hope that I can stand up and lift my guitar again to play it someday at church again.
  • I feel that this also needs to come out...it has to and I am so sorry guys for ranting. I feel like if I don't say this I will forever hold it in me and that is precisely what is rotting my heart.

    I just can't talk to anyone about this. Not my family. Only God. I know that if he has permitted me to go through this horrible experience it is for my own good. I did learn a lot :( it just hurts a lot right now.

    "I had already previous wounds from my own priest in my local parish that were just mending, but then this happened"

    We were one choir in Spanish in my parish.

    That is how things were before other local choirs decided to butt in and not join the choirs established there, but just forcefully make room for their choir. Father supported them and took us aside.

    I remember the priest going to the choir loaf and saying "this is your last week playing because other choirs are coming to play". The priest instead of making us one whole choir he ended up dividing the choir.

    I would have untied with any choir and just helped them out, but I was getting kicked out and was apparently not wanted.

    It is ridiculous how many Spanish choirs we have in my current parish (that is why I refuse to engage in any of their choirs). There is a total of 5-6 choirs. They take turns each Sunday.

    These choirs are a group of people who are not from the community and forcefully force themselves to play in other communities; setting aside any other choirs in the community. I have no idea why this stuff started happening it is a nightmare.

    Our priest has let this happen.

    Maybe this is for the best, but I think a choir would sound better if we would work together. I just got hurt when the priest was like I don't need you anymore because better people are coming.

    Before I left to the other parish I tried to re-unite all the choirs so we could all play and sing together. That so did not happen. They started to hate and humiliate each other; it was horrible.

    When I realized that they wanted to only sing with their members and were not accepting other members I was really sad.

    Each wanted to be the soloist of their choir. They were not willing to work together, to share opinions and ideas, but to do whatever they wanted.

    Why would my priest tell me to leave to go help another community? To get rid of me. I find no other motive. He never really liked me. Just my luck huh? He always has hated me. Stepping on me and making me feel worse than dirt.

    To mend all the hurtful things he had said to me and my family I decided to ask for his forgiveness in person; I said I was sorry because I knew he would never tell me that.

    My wounds started to heal, but now that I see him again something inside of me stirs and it is not something nice. Seems that I can't forgive him after all. What kind of person have I become? Surely this is not the kind of person God wants me to be yet I can't do much. I still feel some sort of grudge against him.

    All I have tried is for the mass to have music. I am not the best. I am not a musician. I was only there because of the Lords Mercy. I don't understand why all the abuse...

    I feel like our church is a lie...like all of us are hypocrites sorry that is how I feel right now. I know that not all the people are like this, but I am starting to waver and...to loose hope.

    When I see the priests acting this way I start to falter. I pray for them, I do, but I feel sad because that is all that I can do for them.

    Ugh. I wish to take a break. See what happens in the future. I am by no means wanting to go back in as lead ever. I never even want to go back to the Spanish choir ever.
  • Ok Sorry guys.
    As you see I have brought in all my choir drama and you don't need more. I apologize for that. I also thank you for helping me and hearing me out.
    God Bless
    Cyndy
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Well, even the guitar isn't the most important thing: after all, it's only been a part of music in Catholic churches for a short period. That's why I agree with the suggestion of finding a good choir to give you some more experiences of Catholic music.

    And I'll extend the suggestion: check the community choruses in your area. Many such groups perform great classics of sacred music in their concerts, and they can be a wonderful experience to the listeners and the singers. Most choruses list their concert plans for the year on their web site.

    Depending on your singing experience and training, you might choose a group with no audition requirement or an easy audition (maybe this one near you); or perhaps a more advanced group that expects you to have taken individual voice lessons and prepare a solo song for the audition. It's a bit ironic, but sometimes you can find better performances of Catholic sacred music in choirs that are not officially religious! What you learn in the community chorus can help you sing with the parish choir, when you find a suitable one.

    If you take up that idea, you'll probably find that the community groups are already rehearsing for their first concert, so you may have to wait a month or two until they are open for singers again.
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    And, by the way, when you meet new choirs or groups in person, you're right to not even mention any of the old choir drama from these other parishes. It's so personal that people feel helpless about it and embarrassed to hear it! (Sharing about it here is different: this is the internet, and you're basically anonymous, and we're church musicians, so we get it.)

    We all have difficult experiences and bad memories, and we can't change the past. However, we can build up good, successful experiences and happy memories to set alongside them; that's a part of how recovery can work. Fr. Groeschel (may he rest in peace) used to tell people who asked how to recover from past hurts, "Take the next good step."

    One more thing: to search for parish choirs near you, you can use masstimes.org to find the churches near your city, then check out each parish's web site. Look for information on the music ministry. You'd want to find churches where the main Mass has music by choir and organ. If they emphasize guitar, I wouldn't recommend it. Then you can make plans to visit the main choir Mass in several churches. It'll take several Sundays. You may end up having to drive 20 miles or so to find a place where you're impressed with the music. You can talk a little with the music director to ask about joining the choir there, or perhaps the director can suggest a parish closer to you.
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • It is ridiculous how many Spanish choirs we have in my current parish (that is why I refuse to engage in any of their choirs). There is a total of 5-6 choirs. They take turns each Sunday.

    These choirs are a group of people who are not from the community and forcefully force themselves to play in other communities; setting aside any other choirs in the community. I have no idea why this stuff started happening it is a nightmare.


    That sounds horrible. It seems like ministry should be community based, not completely imported. It's like a choir mafia over there. Trust in God's plan for you. I've seen enough choir drama to know when to take a step back and ask if there's something else I've been missing, and pray for patience that endures decades. A few brief decades is all we get to serve on Earth, and many years waiting for that vocation, a calling to participate and create something new that will endure beyond our own years here.

    Clergy are transitory and should show more respect towards the community! Beautiful things happen when they do.
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Sometimes I don't understand God and it is very frustrating.

    This has been the stumbling block for theologians since time immemorial. God is a Mystery Whom our mortal minds cannot even begin to comprehend. All of the volumes of theology and philosophy discussing the nature of God have only just barely begun to scratch the surface.

    If I were you, I'd take time out to pray about it, without letting it prey on you, mind. Perhaps it's just man's fallen nature - people can be real jerks, and you just need to find a different position. Perhaps by showing you these people, He is trying to tell you that you should expand your knowledge and embrace bigger and better things - perhaps this might be a time to start exploring other genres of music, especially sacred music. (If you like guitar, try a recording of John Dowland lute ayres, and then maybe a recording of Tudor Church Music (like Thomas Tallis, William Byrd, or Orlando Gibbons. If you want a real change - try some Bach. Or heck, maybe the Bee-Gees?)

    Basically, try not to worry. As St. Julian of Norwich said: "All shall be well, And all shall be well, And in every manner of thing, All shall be well."
  • Thanks for the links chonak
  • I am looking through them right now. :)
  • Continuousbass
    "It's like a choir mafia over there" lol yea right. I like your word choice. Choir Mafia (^_^)
    Thank you for your feedback will do!

    "Clergy are transitory and should show more respect towards the community! Beautiful things happen when they do."

    You are correct, but there is no reason to dwell up this.
  • I feel much better today.
    Thank you very much!
    Cynthia
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Thank you for sharing your story with us, it must have been very hard.

    I feel certain God will somehow show you to a place and a community that will make better use of your gifts.

    One thing I was struck by in your story, people who want to set the agenda, make rules, decide what will be done, boss others around -- but don't show up to do the work themselves! (and often, CAN'T do it themselves, no skill, no knowledge.)
    They seem to be everywhere.

    God bless you.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    cyndy:

    i have arrived late, but you have my prayers.
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • Cyndy, thanks for sharing your story. It's really hard to get back into any kind of music ministry when you have been hurt like that, especially by a priest. I've been there, and I know it can take many, many years to heal from those wounds. I'm glad you've found this forum, because it can be so comforting to talk to others with the same experiences and backgrounds.

    I wanted to echo what some other posters have said about you finding a good choir to sing in and don't worry about directing it for now. I don't know if there are a lot of churches where you live or if you're in a rural area, but even if you find a community choir to sing in, it would be a great learning experience and you can remember why you loved music in the first place.

    Sometimes it's so hard to remember why we're doing this. I'm about the same age as you and I've wondered many times if I was crazy to get involved with church music because I had no idea how much I'd have to deal with politics, backstabbing, etc. Anyways, I hope that you are feeling better, and know that we're all supporting you.
    Thanked by 1musiccyndy
  • Thanks G :)
  • I greatly appreciate your prayers.
    Thank you francis :)
  • musiclover88,

    "I hope that you are feeling better, and know that we're all supporting you."
    I do feel better thank you very much :)
    Thank you so much for the support! You guys have given me the support I have never had in all this time.

    You have no idea what this means to me.

    Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I am forever grateful to all of you!

    I feel like little by little I can move forward.
    :) Cyndy
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I don't try too much to think about this. I want to put it behind me, but I find it hard to do this. Every time I think about all this I just cry.

    I hope that I can move on from this. Right now I am a bit numb.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    There are better places out there waiting for you. Look forward, never backward.
    Thanked by 2musiccyndy CHGiffen
  • Yes, let me echo CharlesW, a wise man I have found: there are times when there is no more that you can do, and you are better off leaving. Then, as others have recommended, find a place to learn, a church with a welcoming choir. There, you can relax and learn and praise God. If He intends for you to lead again, you will be better prepared, but the psychological break of not doing any leading for a while is key.

    You need to have some time where you are not worrying as you go to Church.

    Kenneth
    Thanked by 2CharlesW musiccyndy
  • Praying for you too,
  • G
    "One thing I was struck by in your story, people who want to set the agenda, make rules, decide what will be done, boss others around -- but don't show up to do the work themselves! (and often, CAN'T do it themselves, no skill, no knowledge.)
    They seem to be everywhere."

    I have no idea how to handle people in this situation maybe I should not have said anything, but this lady was driving me nuts. You have to be very firm and then they start to hate you for it. Seems that people like this don't learn any other way though.

    Thanks for wording it better. I am glad this point got across. This is something I do not miss at all in the choir and unfortunately happens all the time :/

    We all need to learn from each other. I was open to their ideas, suggestions, and concerns trying my best, but this lady is definitely something else.

    I tried to make peace with this lady and had a meeting with her. There I told her to stop being bossy, that I would not play what she wanted me to play, that she was hurting me with her attitude, and that I would have none of it.

    She hated me for that. It is unbelievable that this lady is twice my age and she behaves this way.

    She then proceeded to invite a keybord"ist" and started to manipulate him into playing whatever she wanted; her puppet.

    It all came down pretty quickly after that. They were the two people who accused and cristised me of being too harsh.

    That is why I will not be lead. I don't want to. I hope that God has mercy on me.
  • Thank you Charles,
    I have already found some great vocalist instructors and should start my classes soon.
    Never look back! Always look forward!
    Thank you :) Means the world to me.
  • Kenneth,
    Thanks for the great advice. I am doing exactly that :)
    I really hope never to go back in as lead though. Even if I am more prepared. I find that no matter what it will always be difficult and simply wish to never go there again.
    However, God always thinks otherwise. :{
  • bonniebede,
    Thanks I greatly appreciate your prayers. (^_^)
  • I went to adoration, I was by myself :)
    It was nice to just sit and talk with God. To pray and to offer all of my butchered feelings.

    I also went to a different community and this past Sunday was just part of the mass with everyone. I felt really nice just to listen to mass and not have to deal with anything concerning the choir. I liked it :) Very peaceful.
  • I think I will be Ok. Ten years of abuse is hard to forget, but I will try my best. I never again want people to step on me and to butcher me; even if it is a priest. I want to stand up for myself; I will never get into this kind of state ever again. It takes far too long to heal.

    I am not going to lie I find getting angry with myself. I want to forget and I want to forgive, but can't seem to so I get mad at myself.
  • I feel so much better :)
    Thanks guys. I plan to be a more active member here and start searching for music :")
    I know I can be way better than I am right now. I want to work hard and make this time count.

    In the future I hope to become a person who composes music for the choir. That is my life time goal aside from forever working with children in schools :)
    Thanks guys (*_*)
    Cyndy
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Cyndy, whatever dark roads and trials you've had to endure, God has been with you and helped you to see the light of his Love for you. He walks with you now and listens to your prayers. He will sustain you as you move forward, stepping out of the darkness and into the Light of his countenance.

    And, here, you will find much support and love.

    Praying for you.
    Chuck