Which Credo do you use?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    For those of you that are in parishes that chant the Credo (instead of reciting it), which setting of the Credo do you use? I've been singing through the Liber Brevior recently and I've found that Credo I is particularly excellent, although I like them all! I also remember Dr. Mahrt saying something about Credo I at the Colloquium in Indianapolis, and that it had some significance or something like that, but I don't remember exactly (I wish I did: his lecture was grand!).
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Regarding Credo I, the Liber Usualis and such books usually have the following or a similar note after it "This is the authentic tone for the Credo, but the following tones may be used where it is customary."

    With my choir (singing for the EF), we do Credo I for Advent, Septuagesima / Lent, and all "Green" Sundays where we sing Mass XI. We then use Credo III for Christmastide, Eastertide, and feasts.

    For whatever reason (un-evaluated habit, most likely), we generally continue to sing Mass VIII after Christmas until Septuagesima Sunday, on which day we make the switch to Mass XI.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    It's great, then, that the ICEL chants include an English version of Credo I.

    Credo I is both easy to learn, because it is repetitive, and difficult, because it is older and sounds older.

    Credo III sounds like a song in a major key--but it is not as repetitive.
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    That's so funny, Jonathan. We do the reverse of your practice at our TLM: Credo III most of the time and Credo I on big feast days. i have my eye on Credo VI which I'd like to introduce sometime after the New Year, probably after Epiphany.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I would suggest the more interesting Credo IV; Credo VI is so repetitive it gets tiresome after a pretty short while.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl matthaeusglyptes
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    We use,
    Credo I on Feasts / Christmastide / Eastertide
    Credo II in Lent and Advent
    Credo IV on Sundays after Epiphany / Sundays after Pentecost
    We also use Credo VI on Sundays we sing Polyphonic motets around once every two months, we sing this alternating between Women and Men, it really is excellent sung this way. Our congregation love it, I think because of the women's voices, but they do seem to want to sing it unlike the others Creeds.
    Thanked by 3JulieColl CHGiffen matthaeusglyptes
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Great suggestions!

    Here's Credo VI alternating between schola and congregation. It does lend itself well to alternation, but the tempo's a bit slow here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp5p2icuogo

    Actually, I just listened to Credo IV, and I think I like it more.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yja0Tp_TCPA
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    This is refreshing to hear!
    The creed, like the rest of the mass should be sung by all everywhere.
    Fr Columba's adaptations are especially well done.
    Too bad you can't use the inimitable adaptation in the back of The Hymnal 1940. There isn't a better English adaptation, but it's Anglican English and is missing that 'holy' in the four marks of the Church. At our special masses at St Basil's Chapel we ordinarily sing Fr Columba's version of Credo I; that, or we sing it recto tono, which can be hauntingly effective. Don't rule out recto tono if something more elaborate is not yet possible in your situation.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Healey Willan's adaptation of John Merbecke's setting is also very good, unfortunately the only copy I have (from Common Praise: Anglican Church of Canada) is in either Prayer-book English or adapted to 1970 ICEL (I don't have it with my at present). I don't know if the Canons of St John Cantius/Healey Willan Society (executors of the Musical Estate of Healey Willan) have revised this for 2010 ICEL - I know they have revised the Missa S. Maria Magdalena for ICEL 2010 and one or two others.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    FWIW, Credo I was the only Credo in use for the Sarum Rite. So if you're doing something English pre-Reformation, that might affect your call.
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  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    We are using credo I (with mass xi) until advent
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    We sing Credo I in Latin at the Missa Cantata and in English (Missal) at the other masses.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    We use Credo I after Pentecost, and any time we sing Missa Orbis Factor. We use Credo III more often than I think necessary (I'm not a fan, but I play it using two manuals, so I get by.) We're going to start learning the Credo from Byrd's Mass for 3 voices. We have sung (rarely) Credo IV.

  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    We use Credo III with Mass I in Paschal Time, Mass VIII (a couple of Sundays in Christmastide), and Mass IX on Feasts of Our Lady. We sing Credo I for the rest, but are in the process of introducing Credo IV to be sung with Mass IV on feast days. The congregation sings the Credo alternating with the Choir, so we try to follow a predicable pattern.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The Credo from Dumont's Missa Regia I is quite nice:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFxaaXqPvWU
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    I agree Credo IV is perhaps the best, In one chant book I have, it is sub-titled Cardinalis!

    Credo II can be problematic as it is so similar to Credo I, although the simplified endings make it an ideal change to make when entering Lent or Advent.

    Credo VI is rather repetitive, and does not usually work so well as the other creeds above.
    Although it does work very well alternating between men / women, we get the women to lead with this piece, so it is easier for the congregation to join in. N.B. Usually our Cantor are male.

    Also I should point out that this is for the E.F. so we have to sing the Credo, what bliss!

    We did look at Credo V once, but choose not to do it. We have not looked at VII, although I have found two different versions.

    It is many years since we sang one of the Du-mont ordinaries...
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  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    See also the Norms for the participation of choirs in the capitular Mass in the Papal Basilica of St. Peter in the Vatican, which was mentioned on NLM a while back.

    This has:
     
      Sundays of Advent: Missa XVII / Credo IV
      Sundays of Christmas: Missa IX / Credo IV
      Sundays of Lent: Missa XVII / Credo IV
      Sundays of Easter: Missa I / Credo III
      Sundays of Ordinary Time: Missa XI / Credo I
      Feasts of Ordinary Time: Missa VIII / Credo III
      Feasts of the B.V. Mary: Missa IX / Credo IV
      Feasts of the Apostles: Missa IV / Credo III
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I don't know who'd be the one to get this done, but Edmund Rubbra's Missa Cantuariensis, setting the 1661 BCP text, should be put into 2010 ICEL - The Credo is for unison chorus and organ, and is especially nice. I can't find a recording on YouTube. It is still under copyright (Boosey&Hawkes, I think?) so it'd have to be done with permission of the publisher, but I think it's an English setting that deserves wider use in the English-speaking world other than the odd performance by St. John's, Cambridge, or other choral-and-floral/1661 BCP establishments.
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I'm not sure why but I'm just enchanted by Credo I right now. I've sung through I, II, III, and IV and so far my favorite is I, and IV is a close second, but I is taking it right now. Whenever I sing through it, even just randomly, I can't stop until I finish it! It just feels so good to the voice.
  • FidemInFidebusFidemInFidebus
    Posts: 611
    Very interesting...

    Two questions: Is there anything that says which Credo to use for specific days or feasts or is this left up to preference?

    Is there a resource to find which Credo is/was customary in different places (or any other chants)??
  • matthaeusglyptes
    Posts: 13
    Why in all the English Credo adaptations is the correptum not used on the Intonation, since in English it ends with a stressed syllable "God." This means that in Credo I, for instance, it should go something like "G G G G F E-D." I suppose it sounds more like the original when you take "one" as an accented syllable, but it is an abuse of the tone formula. Likewise throughout the chant, there ought to be more correpta in the English adaptation. Has anyone seen this done correctly? I think not even the St. Dunstan Kyrial has it right.
  • matthaeusglyptes
    Posts: 13
    The oldest credos are I and II. III and IV are quite recent in comparison. In the 15th century, many of the credos used (when appointed) were abbreviated, i.e., contained only the first and second parts and omitted or curtailed the third (Holy Spirit's) part. These were also largely rhythmic. In some of these renaissance (pre-Trent) kyrials, a rhythmic, abbreviated credo in the fifth or sixth mode was often appointed for high feasts; these resemble a little the Vat. ed. credo III, but are slightly earlier. A search for Credo Cardinale on youtube will get you a video of a rhythmic Credo IV performed by an eastern European schola that gets the idea across. On high feasts I guess you have so much music, etc., you want the creed to be over quickly. :)
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    We sing I, III, and IV. They come from quite distinct historical periods and have quite distinct musical premises. Credo I is the earliest, from the period of mainly singing chant. Its melodic style is mainly conjunct motion, both in the direct melodic motion and also in the foundation of the melody: the first phrase is based upon overall motion from a to g, the second circles around g, the third makes a stepwise descent to d. The most expressive interval is a to b-flat, which is most prominent in the middle section of the piece, which includes "et incarnatus est . . .

    Credo IV is from the fifteenth century and its initial interval is a skipwise perfect fifth. At this time, the foundation of melody was the intervals of the fifth and fourth as they comprise the whole octave, and after the fifth, this melody ranges stepwise freely through the whole octave.

    Credo III comes from the seventeenth century, and its basis is very triadic. Its melody centers around the notes of the triad, and if it is sung without accompaniment, one can easily imagine a tonal accompaniment.

    Three very different musical styles, which beautify the liturgy.
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I like how the ICEL Credo is based on Credo I. It is a great way to introduce the ancient melody to the students. I may have them start chanting the Lord's Prayer using the ICEL melody.
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