Agnus Dei for Hispanic Choirs
  • bjerabek
    Posts: 63
    Advent is almost here and it's time for many parishes to take Agnus Dei and Sanctus XVIII out of cold storage!

    If you have an Hispanic group as I do, you may want to get them on board also. I am asking mine to sing only the Agnus Dei this year -- so as not to overwhelm them -- some of them are much more resistant to Latin than the "Anglos" are -- and we will go from there. I am promoting it as a "point of unity with the American community", since in our parish we use the Latin parts during the penitential seasons sometimes.

    In order to facilitate this process, I have produced a PDF that has the Agnus Dei XVIII with some changes made to the Latin spelling to make it easier for Hispanics to learn the Italian pronunciation that is used. Spanish is a phonetic language, so it was only necessary to change those parts where the consonants are different from Italian to Spanish ('gn', 'qu', and 'c' before a vowel). The PDF is attached. The second page includes the relevant section of Nova Organi Harmonia so that your pianist or organist (we only have a pianist for our Spanish Mass) can play along and help them out.

    Before any of you complain that this all is not terribly correct, please be advised that we have to start somewhere and this is a huge leap for us, from our standard Spanish stuff, to this very basic Latin stuff.

    My thanks to Jeff Ostrowski for his help notating my Spanishified Latin and for all his work on the Nova Organi Harmonia!!!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    bjerabek, what you suggest if your post is to be taken literally is that you are in a Spanish-speaking country such as Spain or somewhere in Latin America, where there are also a number of English-speaking Americans. If this is not the case, the phrase "point of unity with the American community" could be taken as extremely offensive. Perhaps you mean "with the English-speaking community" or even "among the American community" (although, even here I'm not sure why you would single out Americans when the Agnus Dei is a point of unity among Catholics worldwide).

    Spanish is so much closer to Latin than English, one wonders if it could be considered condescending to go to such great lengths to teach the one or two variants in the texts. Perhaps it would be better to teach by example, or to include your phonetic version somewhere other than immediately below the staff. At the very least, I hope you plan to run this by several members of the Hispanic community before going forward.
  • bjerabek
    Posts: 63
    incantu, I am in the United States, and I was just using the language that the hispanic community itself uses. When I was studying Spanish it was hammered into us that we had to always use the adjective "estadounidense" instead of "americano" when speaking about people from the United States. To not do so would be politically incorrect and "extremely offensive" as you said.

    Well, truth be told, I have almost NEVER heard a hispanic person use the adjective "estadounidense" in a spoken sentence (in fact, I can't think of a single time), and I have almost ALWAYS heard them refer to people from the United States as "americano/a". If they themselves refer to the situation that way, then I have no hesitation in speaking about a "point of unity with the American community". I have found that hispanics are not as politically correct and hypersensitive about such distinctions as we tend to be in this country. They know what I mean, and apparently they mean the same thing, based on the way they speak.

    Yes, there are a lot of similarities between Spanish and Latin, but there are also a very large number of mutations and dissimilarities, due in part to the influence of the Arabic language on Iberian peninsula. From my own experience, I find it difficult at times to switch between Italian and Spanish, or French and Spanish, never mind between English and Latin, and keep all the pronunciation straight. I should think that it would not be any different for a native Spanish speaker having to switch from Spanish pronunciation to the standard Italian pronunciation of Ecclesiastical Latin. The pronunciation of "Agnus" according to Spanish standards would be "Ag - nus"; the pronunciation of "qui" would be like "key". My efforts are aimed at helping a choir group that does not like the idea of using Latin and therefore has set itself up to feel overwhelmed by anything about it that is difficult. I am their priest and I feel as if I have a pretty good handle on this particular situation. In any event, I would certainly not patronize the congregation by giving them a handout with the phonetic spelling used.
  • AOZ
    Posts: 369
    bjerabek,

    Why not just hand out or print the Agnus as it is written, in ecclesiastical Latin? Most aren't going to be looking at the music anyway, much less a handout with phonetic spelling. Sing it according to the best ecclesiastical Latin that can be mustered in the parish. By you, by a cantor, by whomever. The point is your congregation will learn by doing and singing from week to week. It's really one in the same adjustment that any national language group would have in adjusting to the Latin. And if it ends up that your parish forever sings it with a Spanish accent or a slightly altered pronunciation, so what?

    Of course only you alone understand the need to sell this as a point of unity with the American community in your particular parish. But why not just abandon the idea, and sell it as a point of unity with a universal community? You might find it a welcome relief from local politics for a change.

    Living and working the deep South, can you imagine what many in the congregation do with the ecclesiastical Latin? And yes it took time. And yes there was resistance. There still is. But with patience and time, people come around. I listen to them every Sunday belting out Gloria XV, or the Agnus Dei. Some sing better than others, some don't sing, and some sing with more diphthongs and twang than you even knew were possible. But they all know at some level they are participating in something more important than themselves and perceived cultural and language differences.
  • bjerabek
    Posts: 63
    AOZ, the attached PDF is to help the choir learn it. It is not meant for the congregation. I live and work in the deep South also.
  • AOZ
    Posts: 369
    My apologies. I read your post too quickly.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Ah I think I must have misread as well. With the choir I think it is fine. But I still think American (when used in the US) means American citizen or American resident. Unless your Hispanic community is entirely made up of non-residents, I would still say "among" rather than "with."
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Good work, Fr. B. Yes, the spelling does look funny, but any opportunity to take small obstacles out of the way is worthwhile.

    AOZ's in your diocese, if I remember right, so you'll get to meet eventually. Maybe at the chant conference she runs in the winter.
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    A simple reminder that the gn=ñ sufficed for the Spanish-speaking Religious Education parents to whom we taught this chant. We'll keep the original Latin orthography, but next time, will add the little pronunciation boxes at the bottom for both new choir members AND our RE parents.

    The "Latin-Sin-Barreras" method of spelling pronunciation in Spanish will work GREAT to ease many into a new language.

    That and the example of our own pronunciation.
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