English Plainchant : Could It Also Just Be Another Novel Passing Fad?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Kudos to Bartlett and Weber and anyone else that attempts to 'right the wrong' of the conciliar fault, but could the wave of replacing Gregorian Chant (GC) with an entirely vernacular chant just be a novelty in itself? Granted, although it harkens back to our tradition and is more rooted in such, if it TOTALLY displaces GC, then are we still NOT putting in place even what VII prescribes (much less the documents of tradition), that Latin is to HOLD pride of place and that vernacular should be judiciously utilized?

    That said, I think it is also important to note that a steady diet of GC is crucial to the liturgical life of the faithful and is that which reflects the TRUE patrimony of sacred music in the Roman rite.

    So my question then becomes, how can we continue to have this cafeteria approach to liturgy and sacred music (various musical styles and various rites, EF, OF) even with the better fare of vernacular chant, and expect to 'arrive' at the goal... THE true chant? I just don't see the product as a segway to the goal... it seems to be an end unto itself.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,610
    GC=Gather Comprehensive?

    The plain fact is, dear Francis, that right now, after 50 years of anti-Latin/anti-tradition rhetoric, it can be difficult enough to get the clergy, quire, & folk to 'dig' chant, and Latin (in which almost no one has even passing training any more) would be another obstacle to the adoption of a more authentic liturgical praxis.

    Vernacular chant/vernacular Liturgy is NOT the ideal, but with the whole-sale loss of Latin in the mainstream, the vernacular has become the de facto lingua franca of the liturgy; and even in the vernacular world, Classical English/Prayerbook English is frowned upon and even not understood.

    Thou and I might know that Classical English might not be that difficult, and that Latin in the Liturgy is not that hard to follow and comprehend either, but, I fear, the only hope for the powers that be to understand that is the Biological Solution. We have to do with what we can manage at present, while always hoping that the ideal will be attained, no matter what set-backs we have.

    I hope I haven't obfuscated too much.
    Thanked by 1RMSawicki
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Sorry Salieri:

    I corrected my post by clarifying GC = Gregorian Chant. You might want to alter your thoughts as a result.

    OHHHHHH... purple text. I got the joke. Sorry... a bit slow today.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 773
    Adam Bartlett is very clear about the goal of his vernacular chant settings. Some excerpts from his Introduction to the Choir Edition of the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual make this clear:

    ...The primary source for the proper processional antiphons of the Mass is the Graduale Romanum. ...
    ...The way that the Church has sung the liturgy since the earliest centuries is in the form of chant—the supreme model of which is Gregorian chant. ...
    ... At the same time, it is fair to say that our present culture is limited in its experience of chant as a form of liturgical prayer, and as a result, the work of establishing a practice of sung liturgy on the parish level requires patience, ongoing catechesis, and a plan for gradual implementation. ...


    The chant settings found in the LCSG are composed to be sung in conjunction with the chants of the Graduale Romanum. This opens up a variety of ways to sing the proper chants of the Mass and offers parishes a way to gradually grow towards giving Gregorian chant pride of place.

    ... This flexible and integrated approach to the processional chants, made possible by the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual, reconciles the tension that exists between the principle that “the main place should be given, all things being equal, to Gregorian chant, as being proper to the Roman Liturgy” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 116; see also GIRM, 41), and the principle that it “is desirable that the assembly of the faithful should participate in the songs of the Proper as much as possible, especially through simple responses and other suitable settings” (MS, 33). ...
    Thanked by 2Earl_Grey RMSawicki
  • donr
    Posts: 949
    @Francis, I have been using the LCSG/LCM chants now for about two years.
    We started doing the Communion, then the Offertory and now we are even doing the Entrance. My next goal is two fold: 1) to get other choirs to start the communion; 2) to start using something from the GR on a trial basis.
    So far we have not done anything from the GR except for the Easter Alleluia and the Christmas Alleluia mixed with the R&A Alleluia with its verse.
    I suppose next I will try a GR chant during Lent or Advent not sure when the opportunity will arise.

    To date I have had no complaints. A few questions yes, and a few praises but no complaints.

    A movement needs time to grow. It can take years, even decades.

    I will get to the GR in due time but it will happen. (unless I'm fired from my volunteering).
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    The problem is that once you get clergy to agree to allow chant in the vernacular, when before it was not permitted, they will want to stop at that and try not to go any further (to Latin chant).

    I feel that there is too much emphasis on the PIPs and this causes previously beloved liturgical practices of an elevated and mysterious nature to be thrown out entirely.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 755
    It seems to me that one good to come from using vernacular chant, rather than hymnody is the return to scriptural texts. The loss of the meditation on scripture provided by the propers has a deleterious effect, quite apart from any musical considerations. Further, by familiarising people with certain chants on a seasonal basis, when one progresses to Latin propers, they will be more familiar with the texts from their previous encounter with them in the vernacular.
    Ideals are ideal, but I believe that gradualism can cut both ways... a slow progressive decline or a slow progressive up-building. As the saying goes, 'if I was going there I wouldn't start from here' but here is where we are - our current major battle is to get the priest to include some of the non-optional parts of the ordinary of the mass, not singing, mind you, just being willing to say them, not leaving them out or substituting something made up of his own.
    Just reading about how far some people around here have managed to progress is inspiring.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Malton
  • donr
    Posts: 949
    I can see your point. But the fact remains that VII wanted the faithful to participate more in the Mass (this does not mean they sing everything). It is easier to participate when you understand the words, not impossible but easier.
    There are no schools in my area public or private that teach Latin. I am unqualified at this time to do it, otherwise I would start teaching it.

    I do as much as I can in my choir, and for the congregation by posting Latin word of the day, and providing the translation for the chants. But its not the same as hearing it in your own tongue.

    The time will come. We need to be patient.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Ah, Salieri,
    Well very have you idiosycratic syntax of mine acquired and disseminate! "Obfuscation" indeed!

    To the point, this is the question that, for moi, that brought about the epiphany back in the New Orleans Chant Intensive (where Mahrt, Turk, Adam B., Ed Schaefer and a host of other very knowledgeable folks were in one place.) To address francis, from then on and to this day having had similar conversations in Indy this month, I don't think that final destination Graduale Romanum will be the terminus for a majority of global RC musical worship. No question it ought to be. But if we're honest with reality, we must measure time in this matter in terms of half and full centuries, as we've (some of us here at least) lived through 50 years of wandering thru the desert.

    Right now I'm waiting to see Fr. Weber's edition, as many have endorsed his attention to the melodic traits of the specific day's propers given the constraints of English diction. Another issue that always is the gorilla in the room is the reality/tension between the Vatican and Solesmes as regards a number of proprietary concerns as I understand Ostrowski and others. Add to that the question of whether the "options" of the IGRM, which the NPM folks still champion as the salvivic future of RCC music, see Pray Tell Live vid on inculturation if you can get through it without gagging, and realize these are the folks who still believe they're driving the bus. And as long as our global conferences of bishops aren't inclined to drive the bus themselves, well, do the math.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    'if I was going there I wouldn't start from here' but here is where we are
    Here is where 'some' are
    I don't think that final destination Graduale Romanum will be the terminus for a majority of global RC musical worship
    i totally agree, and therefore refuse to acknowledge that there should be a 'patiently waiting' position. In other words, no compromise, because compromise only leads to more compromise, not terminus.
    the "options" of the IGRM, which the NPM folks still champion as the salvivic future of RCC music
    can you be specific to the salvivic text to which you alude?
    see Pray Tell Live vid on inculturation if you can get through it without gagging, and realize these are the folks who still believe they're driving the bus.
    I got off their bus years ago at stop, Summorum Pontificum. Are they still driving it away from the oasis and into the heat of the dessert of hell?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    francis, I didn't allude to anything, I specifically cited their "faithfilled" adherence to the options of the GIRM/IGRM as being both valid and comprehensively tolerant of their philosophies.
    Regarding monitoring NPM/Pray Tell- dude, you're familiar with the maxim "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer."
    That said, I don't consider Frs. Ruff, Krisman, Chepponis, Joncas et al "the enemy." But to not avail yourself of where their groupthink and zeitgeist is currently, you must pay attention to their organs of information. Ya think?

    BTW, what is the "dessert of hell?" A s**t Ice Cream Sandwich? Very Dante.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Melo, forgive my poor spelling. (Dante, please forgive me my ignorance of the world of sin.) (see my website, www.thesevencapitalsins.com)

    I am sorry I cannot listen to the entire video. It is just too much bulls**t and cannot endure the odor much less the foolishness of thought. I will, however, try to dissect it as best as possible as I understand what is being proliferated as 'true'. You will have to give me time, however, and I don't know if that will make it here in hours, days or weeks.

    Please pass the ice cream.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    No harm, no foul, francis.
    These are, indeed, bad times.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Well, perhaps we should just get on with good music and hope eventually that it will find good liturgy.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Getting the congregation to participate more fully in the liturgy isn't that hard.

    1.) Teach them to sing a setting of the Mass Ordinary. Even the Missal Chants (Missa Simplex I) is sufficient. It can be done in either vernacular or Latin. You can later add other ones such as Missa De Angelis or Orbis Factor, but the Simple Missal Chants should be well-known by all.

    2.) Use an SEP communion chant and tell people that it's just like a responsorial psalm except that it is sung at communion. You can later on get the choir to sing the GR antiphon followed by the SEP communio.

    3.) Active participation doesn't mean that the whole congregation has to sing everything. Get them to sing all the responses and the Our Father. People "actively listen" to the homily. They can also "actively listen" to an offertory motet/anthem.

    4.) A hymn should follow the communion chant. Learn a handful of eucharistic/seasonal hymns and cycle through those through the liturgical year. Don't be afraid to repeat some hymns, as this helps build familiarity with the congregation.

    5.) Print liturgy guides complete with translations of any latin texts. That way if people complain that they don't understand it, tell them that it's right in front of them in the leaflet and read the darned thing!

    The biggest single thing that you can do to get the faithful to participate more fully in the mass is to give them good Catechises. Solid preaching from the clergy would also help, in particular on Feasts which pertain to points of the theology of the mass, eg. Corpus Christi, Trinity Sunday, Pentecost, etc.
  • Francis (et alia),

    I completely agree that this is a hugely important question. In fact, my review of the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual will be appearing this coming Wednesday at NLM, and I will take up directly the question of whether Gregorian Chant will be marginalized by vernacular chant and whether the two can work side by side. My belief, as will be evident in that review, is that they can indeed work together, and that the best way to the recovery of GC is to acclimate the clergy and the faithful to the plainchant style itself. Also, I think Fr. Weber makes a hugely important point in this interview, viz., that we need to be singing the text of the Mass and the word of God, and that chant is the classic way of doing this and inherently the best way of doing this.

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/07/celebrating-liturgy-worthily.html

    Also see my recent post at Views from the Choir Loft:
    http://www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2014/jul/17/basic-steps-improve-music-your-parish-part-2/

    One obvious way that Latin (and a bit of Greek) can come back is to sing the Ordinary of the Mass, which NEVER NEVER changes. It's not hard to pick up the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, even the Credo, if the settings chosen are not too ambitious. We should bring back the original languages of the liturgy FIRST by means of these ever-repeated chants. The more complex propers of the Gradual can come later on, and even they can come in waves: the communion antiphon is a good place to begin, because one usually needs a fair amount of music for communion time, and people are not walking around with hymnals, and the chant antiphon, with psalm verses, establishes the right "atmosphere."

    Still, we do have a long way to go, and I would be much happier attending Mass at a parish where the chanted Ordinary and Propers, even in English, put me in a frame of prayer and praise and worship as befits the Mass, than a place where they sang crummy hymns and then slapped on a Salve Regina at the end.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    It is all about establishing a beach-head.
    You never retreat.
    Maybe you do not advance.
    The advance will come via the waves behind you.
    Man up.
    Soldier on.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 755
    lol@francis

    'if I was going there I wouldn't start from here' but here is where we are
    Here is where 'some' are


    Not being smitten with inclinations to coronation or papal office - the 'we' in that sentence was meant to refer to my local situation, not the universal church. I am well aware that that 'we' is not all in the same straits that 'we here' are...

    @ eft I agree with the beachhead view. For me I think of it this way - if Catholics should know this stuff, then I should learn it. (I'm trying) If Catholics should know this stuff then I should teach it, preferably to some who will be a) open to it and b) able to benefit for a long long time.(I'm trying this too - Children's Schola). I may have to wait for one of them to be ordained and made a Bishop to see the full fruits of those effort, but hey, that could still be in time for a nice sung requiem Mass.
  • Latin was used in the liturgy because it was the vernacular. The Gospel , when it was read in Greek would then be proclaimed again in the vernacular, Latin.
    Until the 1600 our own English had not developed a consistent universal spelling or grammar. Considering the time invested in producing manuscripts English would have been unreliable.
    Now English is our vernacular and has a universal usage. And chant research and semiology has unraveled many the the rhetorical and phonetic secrets of chant useful in transcribing the style beyond Latin. Using English with the traditional chant combined with the last 150 years of research is more than a trend;
    and could be as influential as Charlemagne's work in chant's development and spread throughout Europe.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Now English is our vernacular and has a universal usage.

    I would hardly call English a univesal language

    English
    L1 speakers - 335 million (2003–2012)
    L2 speakers - 505 million (no date)

    Even for those who speak English as an L2 (second language) both L1 and L2 don't even add up to 1 billion people. Mass in Latin is celebrated in every country on the globe. I think Latin is still the universal language. I am sticking to composing music in Latin.

    Also, the English language has a tendency to distort theological meaning.
    Thanked by 1BGP
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    Latin is beautiful and attached to some of the most gorgeous music ever written. I think those who believe it will come back into widespread use are nostalgic dreamers. Some hold to the theory of, "I like and I feel therefore it is," but the more realistic tend to see through all that. If we are serious about preserving chant then it seems we need to work harder at promoting English chant. Rant, rave, wear aluminum foil hats, wait for the space brothers, and chuck ancient documents galore, but I don't believe Latin will come back into widespread use and will survive only in isolated pockets.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Charles:

    Can I quote you on that one?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    Whatever.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Rant, rave, wear aluminum foil hats, wait for the space brothers, and chuck ancient documents galore, but I don't believe Latin will come back into widespread use and will survive only in isolated pockets


    Brilliant! And you will find them by following the signs in towns pointing to the:

    Roman Catholic Church (Orthodox)

    To separate it from the common liberal Roman Catholic Church which spawns all kinds of bizarre things like the ordination of women...and priests who are really, really concerned about being liked by the laypeople and are willing to work hard to avoid all the things the people do not like that might make them stop coming and giving money....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    No, I think it is a matter of numbers and where the majority of the people are found. They are not at TLMs and are unlikely to ever be. A problem with closed groups of like-minded people is that they talk at each other and reinforce group views. I think that happens a lot here.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Charles:

    I am one of the many who are now creating isolated pockets! Pope (emeritus) B16 said this would be happening... I guess he knew.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    You have been your own pocket for years. LOL
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    ...I hope you continue to enjoy the English music you support (ocp, gia, wlp)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    Look, I think Latin is great and would like it to be used regularly. But I look out at the wider Catholic world and I don't see it. It is not there. For all the people who are not going to hear Latin chant on Sundays, English chant is well worth promoting as widely as possible.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518


    ...I hope you continue to enjoy the English music you support (ocp, gia, wlp)


    That's pretty whacked. No one is talking about contemporary American music. ENGLISH PLAINCHANT.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    hmmmm... sorry about that... I got sidetracked... long day... English Plainchant... yes... so sorry.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    It is great music. If you can't have Latin - and there are many reasons most congregations can't - sing English plainchant. I haven't gotten negative reactions to it.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    hmmm... didn't we do this in England? I think they cornered that market. (forgive me Charles... just playing devils advocate here)

    'great' music. 'time' will tell. (just being honest and frank, again, being very grateful for all (bartlett, weber, ostrowski, et al) attempts to reverse the catastrophe)
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    People "actively listen" to the homily.


    Really?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Gavin:

    It's the old argument about 'active participation' that listening is an 'active' effort, not just singing or speaking out loud, etc.

    (I go to Spanish Mass so I don't have to engage my brain or "actively" listen to a homily or bear the banality of american sacro pop... ignorance is bliss?)

    It also occurs to me... 'universal' has less to do with numbers of people and more to do with numbers of locations... EVERYwhere.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    If we're going to exercise some sense in the matter this is what would happen:

    Ordinary of the Mass Chanted in Latin to Common/Simple Tones (Missa Simplex I and Credo I should be universally known among Catholics)

    Propers of the Mass may be chanted in Latin OR the Local Vernacular language, according to the abilities of the choir. This might mean, Graduale Romanum, Graduale Simplex, By Flowing Waters, Simple English Propers, Psalm-Tone Propers, etc. It depends on the resources that you have.

    Appropriate hymns may also be Sung as Processionals, Offertory, Communion or Recessional hymns, but they should always follow the proper prescribed antiphons. In the case of the Processional, it should be sung until the incensing of the altar, where the Introit antiphon is sung. If you have a big church with a long nave (and hence a long procession) this is most practical. In many smaller churches, it would be more appropriate to choose either the processional or introit.

    In my own church, we sing processional hymns in Ordinary Time and Introits in all other Seasons and Feasts of the year. We ALWAYS sing the Communion Proper.

    Vernacular music doesn't have to be vulgar contemporary stuff. There is plenty of good music out there. We just need to stop letting people believe that they are Christian Pop-Stars who sing for God on Sundays.
  • The one thing that hasn't been well covered in this thread is the rather obvious fact that 99% of the ongoing and expanding revival of Gregorian chant is going to be within the context of the traditional Latin Mass (EF if you prefer). This chant fits that Mass hand in glove, and, O ever-blessed necessity!, if you are going to sing a High Mass or Solemn Mass, you've got to sing the real chant (unless you can do a polyphonic version of the propers and Ordinary). So, it's a world in which the chant is always welcome, always useful, always fitting, and (nearly) always appreciated by the faithful who attend. This, folks, is where the Gregorian chant revival is happening and will continue to happen.

    That being said, I've already argued here, and elsewhere, that vernacular chant is a good path to take in the context of the Novus Ordo (OF if you prefer). There are so many reasons to sing the texts of the Mass in the ecclesiastical musical style that suits them, namely, modal, ametrical chant.

    At Wyoming Catholic College, one day we'll be singing Gregorian at the EF High Mass, the next day we're singing vernacular chant at the Novus Ordo. The two go together better than one might think at first blush, and I regret that there are not more places in the country where one can experience truly sacred music in the Church's mother tongue as well as in the people's vernacular. I don't see these things as opposed to each other, they are just different. (I do think it would be a mistake to oppose them by insisting only on vernacular chant at the OF and never making any room for Latin chant; whereas I don't have any reason to think the EF needs vernacular chant -- that's not its genius, nor the expectation of the faithful. Latin does have a privileged place in our tradition, after all, so it can't be treated as a mere equal.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    I agree. The language barrier is difficult to overcome in an OF parish - speaking generally, not specifically. As a retired teacher, I noticed that many of my students were not knowledgeable on history, culture, and worship. There were exceptions, of course. Many seemed to have good educations in the technologies, but were lacking in the finer arts. Their attentions spans seemed to get shorter over the length of my career, as well. I suspect that is from competition with other sources, particularly electronic media.

    Given the choice between mediocre contemporary music and good English chant, the chant wins out every time. I am not knocking well-written contemporary music and use it, too.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • As a P.S. to the above -- I admire the ROTR liturgies of the Sacred Music Colloquium and I'm not at all saying "it can't be done": you can indeed have a full set of Gregorian Propers and Ordinary at a Novus Ordo Mass. But it's extremely rare, and not at all likely to get much more common in spite of our efforts and wishes, whereas the weekly and even daily celebration of the EF is spreading across the globe (just look at the news this past week: new dedicated apostolates in Munich, Los Angeles, and Brasilia; and that's not taking into account the slow progress among young clergy in the USA).

    The other problem I've long had with the OF, as such, is that its plethora of options and variety of "inculturations" and all the expectations that go along with them make it very difficult to "get it right," even from a musical point of view. It's like a complicated and fragile pipe system: the moment you plug up a leak in one place, another sprouts somewhere else. You get the Introit into the Mass, but you can't get rid of the army of EMHC's; you twist an arm to sing the Credo, but then the priest uses EP II and throws the whole off balance. It's almost impossible to get it just right, unless you take the radical hermeneutic of continuity approach of the Colloquium -- and that's the most exotic and endangered species in the rainforest of contemporary Catholicism.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    unless you take the radical hermeneutic of continuity approach of the Colloquium
    What is this hermeneutic for those of us who do not know?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,331
    Such a hermeneutic in liturgy applies to celebrations of Mass according to the Ordinary Form. Perhaps one may think of it in several points.

    Where the current Roman Missal and related liturgical books (e.g., the Ceremonial of Bishops) offer multiple options, a priest may choose to follow options which preserve continuity of practice with the previous liturgical tradition.

    In addition, he may invite the people, without compulsion, to exercise their options similarly: notably, in the reception of Holy Communion kneeling and on the tongue.

    A third point of the hermeneutic in liturgy arises in matters of ceremonial and attire, where a practice may be mandated in the old form but not mentioned in the new form, either to forbid it or prescribe it. A priest might follow the principle that such old practices may be laudably retained.

    Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can add to this.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Then I shall add:

    My wife sent this to me today, from the office of readings for the day.

    "From a homily on the Gospels by Gregory the Great, pope

    She longed for Christ, though she thought he had been taken away

    When Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and did not find the Lord’s body, she thought it had been taken away and so informed the disciples. After they came and saw the tomb, they too believed what Mary had told them. The text then says: The disciples went back home, and it adds: but Mary wept and remained standing outside the tomb.

    We should reflect on Mary’s attitude and the great love she felt for Christ; for though the disciples had left the tomb, she remained. She was still seeking the one she had not found, and while she sought she wept; burning with the fire of love, she longed for him who she thought had been taken away. And so it happened that the woman who stayed behind to seek Christ was the only one to see him. For perseverance is essential to any good deed, as the voice of truth tells us: Whoever perseveres to the end will be saved.

    At first she sought but did not find, but when she persevered it happened that she found what she was looking for. When our desires are not satisfied, they grow stronger, and becoming stronger they take hold of their object. Holy desires likewise grow with anticipation, and if they do not grow they are not really desires. Anyone who succeeds in attaining the truth has burned with such a great love. As David says: My soul has thirsted for the living God; when shall I come and appear before the face of God? And so also in the Song of Songs the Church says: I was wounded by love; and again: My soul is melted with love.

    Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek? She is asked why she is sorrowing so that her desire might be strengthened; for when she mentions whom she is seeking, her love is kindled all the more ardently."
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen