Text Revision of Mass Settings from Hymns, Psalms and Spiritual Canticles by Theodore Marier
  • bfranckbfranck
    Posts: 23
    I have revised the following from Theodore Marier's marvelous music manual using the new texts: Glory to God; Holy, Holy, Holy I; Memorial Acclamation B. It has been saved in Finale NotePad 2012.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    That is awesome. Please make available!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Anyone who does this [and anyone that wants a copy] really must seek and gain permission from the copyright holder first.

    Since we are all hopeful that a reprint might someday be available or even better yet, is it not best to anger the gods of copyright?

    Some copyright holders are very willing to permit out of print music to be copied, sometimes even without a charge. But it is the work of the person that they represent and has to be respected.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    That was copyright 1984 right? I forgot it was that recent.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I believe Marier transferred his copyrights to the choir school, so you'd contact music director John Robinson.
  • bfranckbfranck
    Posts: 23
    From my understanding, reading the other discussion on the topic of Hymns, Psalms and Spiritual Canticles, the copyright issue was a big focus there. I have not yet made any effort to contact anyone with regard to copyright permission. I have merely taken the first step of matching the new texts to the existing music, retaining the music precisely as Theodore Marier composed it, as much as possible. I could not attach the files to the prior message as there must be proprietary rights generating from the creators of Finale NotePad 2012. In addition, that free program does not permit a score absent of a time signature. Hence, the appearance on the page looks a little clumsy in 4/4 time!
    I read from the prior discussion that someone had attempted to contact John Robinson and received no response. How will the issue of copyright be resolved if the other party chooses to ignore communications or refuses to respond?
    My intention behind this project was to introduce in bits and pieces this marvelous creation from a master in Gregorian chant to my parish in Winslow, Maine as an alternative to the Paul Taylor Mass of St. Francis, which they have been singing unceasingly for the last four years. And, do they sing it well!
    The chant version produced through ICEL for the new text was mandated at the start of Advent 2011 by the Diocese of Portland as one of only four Mass settings which could be used. This ICEL chant version is an utter failure and quite monotonous for sure! It is not a compatible fitting of text and music together.
    This is what makes Theodore Marier's music so absolutely wonderful! The text is perfectly wedded to the music, which would have made Richard Wagner very pleased. At times, I have almost felt Marier's Mass renderings to be so supreme that they surpassed even the old Latin Mass chants! Take for example, Marier's own setting of the Our Father. It certainly is far more interesting than the standard chant version used for decades. And, it can stand side by side in comparison to the melody of the Latin Pater Noster.
    The point in all of this discussion is that Theodore Marier's great legacy has to be used and heard by as many people as possible!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The point in all of this discussion is that Theodore Marier's great legacy has to be used and heard by as many people as possible!


    But under law this is like stealing a painting from a museum that bought it and kept where it is protected and then going out and displaying it someplace where it can be seen and enjoyed by as many people as possible.

    Legally you and your parish are out on a limb. Unknowingly you have put them there and we understand that. I'd stop singing it immediately and contact the copyright owner, apologize for what you have done unknowingly, send a copy along and ask permission to use it in your parish.*


    *Your heart is in the right place but the copyright police go for the wallet every time, even if the heart is not beating! There has been recent communication with the copyright holder and a response came back, so you need to try this yourself.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/122192#Comment_122192
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Liam,

    Thank you for posting this link. I had forgotten that we went through this entire copyright issue with bfranck before and see now that he has chosen to ignore our comments, so I am dropping this issue.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    Would there be any copyright issue if bfranck's congregation learned it by rote and didn't have copies of music in front of them? Does copyright extend to singing a tune if it's not being reproduced in print?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    If you choose to find ways to not have to pay someone for their work product, which they have chosen to protect, well, it's a legal and moral issue.

    In someways it is definitely like coveting someone else's spouse.

    On the other side of the coin, one person, like bfranck, can through their desire to expose the world to Marier's work, can be the person to make it happen.

    Every good thing...and bad thing...has come about (including the Model T Ford) through the desire of one person to make something happen.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Well. Noel, some people have received permission to use Marier works in an informal way, so it's not really possible for others to know when that has happened. Maybe that's why JT wisely put a point in the forum guidelines against getting into disputatious copyright matters on the forum.
    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago Liam CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    I think representatives of the copyright owner have been generous in an informal way, at least for works not involving further third-party rights, and given the contemplated euthanization of the hymnal in its original parish, that generosity might well continue.
    Thanked by 1pjmurray
  • bfranckbfranck
    Posts: 23
    In response to the numerous comments regarding copyright laws, I am fully aware of the seriousness surrounding the matter. I have no intention of putting myself or the parish I work for in jeopardy over this issue. Likewise, I also have no intention of allowing the great work of Theodore Marier to fall into oblivion, or as Liam has said, "contemplated euthanization".
    What distresses me most about the dialogue in this forum has been the unilateral focus on the subject of "copyright" to the complete absence of commentary on where this discussion should be, the promulgation of Marier's outstanding creations into mainstream Catholicism! His writings represent some of the best church music composed in decades, if not centuries. And, while I will seek copyright permission from whoever has the ultimate authority, I am continuing the work of adapting Hymns, Psalms and Spiritual Canticles to the new translations. Just this evening, I have finished with Memorial Acclamations A and C, the latter being the hardest to reconcile with his existing music. Since we do not have to concern ourselves with the Lord Have Mercy, Our Father and Lamb of God texts, the only remaining task will be the formidable job of grappling with the Nicene Creed.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    I believe some of this work might be redundant, as both John Dunn and John Robinson have done significant work in retrofitting Marier's compositions for the current missal translation. Do you own a copy of the "white book" (temporary kyriale/psalter in use at St. Paul's)? If not, send me a private message and I shall try to procure one for you.
  • bfranckbfranck
    Posts: 23
    For Mr. Olbash: Thank you! But, I do not know how to send a "private message". You may be quite right about redundancy. I do not have a "white book". The last time I attended Mass at St. Paul's was for Theodore Marier's Funeral, with Bernard Cardinal Law processing and recessing the center aisle just a foot away from where I was standing. I spoke with Father Robert Skeris beforehand while he was putting on vestments along with the other priests. I did attend Mass there in the 1980s when Marier conducted and John Dunn was at the organ console.
    I hope that both John Robinson and Dunn have been faithful to the style of chant as Theodore Marier knew it, so well, coming from Dom Andre Mocquereau's intimate understanding of Gregorian rhythm. I do not believe that anyone on the face of the earth could align both Gregorian-styled chant and rhythm with English language texts better than Marier. His chant-styled compositions for the Mass feel so natural and are effortless to sing!
    Thanked by 2pjmurray Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Well, you may not want the white book, anyway.... The accompaniments for the new parts of the reset ordinary in the white book are very different from Marier's approach in precisely the ways your comment indicates concern, and I can't imagine you'd care for the psalter part.
    Thanked by 1pjmurray
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    To send someone a private message, click on his or her username, and you'll find a link at the person's profile page.
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    Robinson who i should contact for hymnal copies? Because i cant copy my self!
    Or he is not very kind and say just no ?
    Ph
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    John Robinson is VERY kind, just extremely busy.
    Thanked by 2BruceL pjmurray
Add a Comment