Stand/Sit/Kneel
  • PurpleSquirrelPurpleSquirrel
    Posts: 165
    Hi everyone,
    Just wondering what is the best way to guide a congregation that is not familiar with the Mass (weddings, funerals, etc.) on when to join in standing/kneeling/sitting. Our current priest will not do this, so is it my job? If so, should I cantor "Let us stand/kneel" etc, or should I speak it? Also, which term should I use, "stand" or "rise"? Or, should I not do anything and just let them sit? Or am I making a big deal about nothing?
    Squirrel
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 944
    It couldn't hurt to give a little direction. I would choose neither singing nor speaking, however, and cue them with a discrete gesture.
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    If one has no service folders which signal when to stand, etc., then one may discreetly instruct when the congregation should stand. And, yes, thay are to stand, not to rise, which means to become elevated or airborne.

    Actually, most people of Anglican heritage are born knowing when to stand, sit, and kneel: they are taught from an early age that we stand to praise (as in singing), sit to be instructed (as in preaching), and kneel to pray. It is passing strange that Catholics seem unable do any of these without someone telling them to.

    If one must give vocal instructions at liturgy, they should be succinct and as non-intrusive into the ritual aura as possible. Every word and action that is not a part of the ritual text is a grievous blemish on the sacred act and 'breaks the spell'.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    My new pastor actually has a page of spoken protocols he wants musicians to invoke at funerals and weddings. As of this writing these protocols are only a phenomenon that about five of my music leadership who are providers for such liturgies would be equipped to provide. So, that will be (and I've notified him) a strong agenda item for our leadership plenum(s) this summer. Before coming to Indy, I had a couple of funerals two days in a row with him, and as the music minister it was clear without him specifying that he expected me to be the "de facto" MC. No problemo. But, in all honesty I use all three modalities depending upon the situation, visual (arms gently used,) spoken (softly) and chanted. I think it best that if called upon, musicians need to cultivate all three modalities. And that takes some serious work, believe me.
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  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    At Sunday Mass we have bells that are rung at the beginning, so that's not a problem. Still, the other person who leads the singing most of the time feels compelled to say "Please stand and turn to hymn number blah blah. Hymn number blah blah in your missalette." It is distracting, obnoxious, and completely unnecessary!

    But fussing aside, ths is a big problem in my parish where at funerals the majority of attendees are LDS. Not only do they have any idea how anything works, they really aren't interested in participating. The funniest thing is when it's time for the Lord's Prayer and one of "us" goes to grab the hand of the Mormon sitting next to them. It's hilarious, especially since there aren't one in a hundred of them who know the prayer, and even if they do, they sure as heck don't want to say it in our Church.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The altar server can provide the model of correct posture.
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  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,048
    LDS don't know the Lord's Prayer? Odd, because there's a major setting by LDS composer Leroy Robertson, in his oratorio on the Book of Mormon.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The altar server can provide the model of correct posture.

    Quite right, Richard, and that solution (or if a deacon is present) is the one I prefer and said thus to the pastor. Nevertheless.....sigh.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Regular parishioners could be encouraged to sit near the front, precisely because they (ostensibly) know the "routine".

    On the other hand, could this be why the 1962 Missal has descriptive, rather than prescriptive rubrics for the postures of the laity?
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  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Be that as it may, Mr Quick, I don't think the LDS use any form prayers; rather, they pray extemporaneously.
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  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    WIKI:

    The LDS belief includes praying to the Heavenly Father and concluding each prayer with in the name of Jesus Christ. Prayers of Latter-day Saints are not repeated from memorized expressions, and may be fairly short or be many minutes in duration. LDS leaders encourage parents to teach their children to pray daily, morning and night, and to have daily prayer as families.[4] These prayers are not facing toward a certain direction and may be kneeling, sitting or standing.


    Which then surprises me that they sing hymns that are repeated prayers.
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  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    Be that as it may, Mr Quick, I don't think the LDS use any form prayers; rather, they pray extemporaneously.

    This is generally true, with the exception of their "Sacrament prayers" said over the bread and water during their liturgical "Sacrament meetings". The priesthood holder who says these prayers must repeat them exactly word-for-word and if he makes a mistake and does not correct himself he has to start over. The bishop or presiding authority watches to make sure the words are recited correctly and signals if there is a mistake. I've heard LDS talk about the anxiety of waiting through repeats hoping the priesthood holder will "get it" correctly.
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  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    In my parish, the masses are held in the lower church during the summer months because there is air conditioning. During the summer, the choir can be seen by the congregation since we aren't in the loft and are situated towards the front of the assembly but out of the actual sanctuary. Under these circumstances I have the choir sit, stand, and kneel at the appropriate times. They also bow at the correct times, etc. PIP's tend to follow what they see in my area. Of course, YMMV.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Sorry to keep the digression going, but I should mention this, in case anyone doesn't know it already: the Catholic Church has an official position about the LDS Church, expressed in this 2001 statement of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. The very brief statement says that LDS baptism is not to be considered valid.

    LDS doctrine is very different from Catholic doctrine on the Trinity, on the nature of man, on the identity of Christ, and on other basic questions. Since these basic elements of the Christian faith are not shared by the LDS community, the Catholic Church does not consider LDS baptism to be the same as the Christian sacrament administered by Catholics, Orthodox, and most Protestants.

    So we do not have a common baptism with the LDS community, and we do not share the same concept of what God is, so it is not really correct that we would pray together, according to the Church's principles on ecumenical relations. Of course, if a person of good will wishes to say the Lord's Prayer at a Catholic wedding along with the priest and congregation, who am I to judge? But we don't need to take any steps to encourage it, because we pray with fellow baptized Christians.
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