Kyrie question why three repeats?
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    I'm trying to play Kyrie XVI from Nova Organi Harmonia.
    It repeats the kyrie three times, then Christe three, and kyrie again three.
    I'm guessing this is some change from the previous form to the Novus ordo, but am at a loss as to what to play, as the three instances are given different accompaniments which eventually resolve in some sort of way. I'm not competent to decide what I should chop out to make it fit the NO 2-2-2 arrangement of the Kyrie.
    Help? Please?
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    I;d leave out the middle one, so you end up with the same accompaniments for the cantor and crowd, then the last Kyrie.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Just as an aside, Bonnie, the reason there is a "ninefold cry for mercy" in the old rite is explained beautifully by Fr. Nicholas Gihr in his book, The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass:

    The frequent repetition of the Kyrie denotes in general the ardor, perseverance and importunity with which, impelled by the consciousness of our sinfulness and unworthiness, we implore mercy and assistance; then there is also therein a still higher, mystical and hidden meaning; wherefore the number three is thrice repeated. The three Divine Persons are separately and consecutively invoked: first, the Father by the Kyrie eleison; then, the Son by the Christe eleison; and, finally, the Holy Ghost by the Kyrie eleison. The invocation of each of the Divine Persons is repeated exactly three times, to signify that with each of the Divine Persons the two others are at least virtually invoked, since by the fact of their mystical indwelling in one another (circuminsessio) all three of the Divine Persons are and live eternally in one another. Other meanings, founded rather in devotion than otherwise, have still been given to this ninefold cry for mercy; thus, for instance, the ninefold signification of the Kyrie is devoutly thought to refer to the nine kinds of sins and wants, or it has been said that thereby we express our desire of union with the nine choirs of angels.


    In the OF, the Kyrie was redacted from nine invocations to six to avoid "useless repetition".

    Interestingly enough, in the old rite, invocations of mercy always occur in groups of three because each of the three Divine Persons is invoked. Thus, the Kyrie had nine; the Agnus Dei three invocations, and the Domine, non sum dignus, which was repeated three times. The Agnus Dei is the only prayer for mercy to have survived the post-Conciliar redactors intact. The Domine, non sum dignus was chopped down to one and the Kyrie to six.

    (As another aside, from a typological, liturgical and symbolic point of view, the number 6 in Scripture and the Fathers of Church has an unfortunate connotation, so it may have been better to reduce the Kyrie to three, which actually might make more theological sense, but that's a topic for another day.)
    Thanked by 4noel jones, aago CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn bonniebede
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    P.S. Another example of three in the EF liturgy as an invocation of the Trinity: the acolyte incenses the priest, the people, the servers, and the Gospel with three swings of the thurible.
    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago CHGiffen bonniebede
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Raymond Brown points out many 3's in the structure of the passion narratives from the Gospels.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn bonniebede
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,229
    The rubrics in the Graduale Romanum do provide for singing the threefold Kyrie for the sake of the musical form.

    To steal a point from Prof. Mahrt: if you're having the congregation sing the Kyrie, the threefold invocations can help people learn the melody.

    The reduction of the Kyrie to a simple call-and-response form seems to stem from the reformers having taken the spoken low Mass as the model, instead of the sung solemn Mass.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn Andrew_Malton bonniebede kenstb
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    And the nine-fold Kyrie was a reduction from the 20+ that were originally in the litany that disappeared long before Trent.
    Thanked by 5JulieColl M. Jackson Osborn Gavin bonniebede chonak
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    I have a question about a nine-fold Kyrie. Is it sung the same way as the six-fold? As in cantor first, then the people repeat twice?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    We used to do it in alternation: Cantor/sometimes priest (CP) and choir as:
    CP-Kyrie, choir-Kyrie, CP-Kyrie
    choir-Christe..., CP -Christe..., choir- Kyrie
    Then last three same as first time.

    Somehow, it all worked out. Did anyone else do it differently?
    Thanked by 2Gavin bonniebede
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I've also heard it done as women or boys/children first, men second and everyone third:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csSTIlYhc_o
    Thanked by 2Gavin bonniebede
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Musically, I've always liked the 9-fold version. Would one's music be verboten for church use if one used 3-3-3 today?
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn bonniebede
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    Good question. If it is not in the current missal does that mean we can't use it?
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    It was nine fold in the low mass, too.
    Thanked by 2bonniebede JulieColl
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    GIRM 52 (for uk) - this may be different where you are!! (my emphases)
    The Kyrie Eleison
    After the Penitential Act, the Kyrie, eleison(Lord, have mercy), is always begun,
    unless it has already been part of the Penitential Act. Since it is a chant by which the
    faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy, it is usually executed by everyone, that
    is to say, with the people and the choir or cantor taking part in it.
    Each acclamation is usually pronounced twice, though it is not to be excluded that it
    be repeated several times, by reason of the character of the various languages, as well as
    of the artistry of the music or of other circumstances    . When the Kyrie is sung as a part of the Penitential Act, a ‘trope’ precedes each acclamation


    Sing the Black Do the Red
    Thanked by 6CHGiffen JulieColl chonak Adam Wood mrcopper kenstb
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I can't remember what document I read, but it said that in the very early masses, the choir would sing kyrie eleison then the Bishop would signal when he thought that enough had been sung.

    6-fold Kyrie and 9-fold are both legitimate options in the current order of mass.

    The 6-fold is best done as a call and response.

    I've done the 9-fold kyrie as men, women then all. It works quite well.

    It has been said to me that using each invocation three times alludes to Peter's thrice-denial of Christ during the passion.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    It's in the Ordo Romanus Primus.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I can't remember what document I read, but it said that in the very early masses, the choir would sing kyrie eleison then the Bishop would signal when he thought that enough had been sung.


    As I recall, that was the reason for the Bishop wearing a different hat, so that he could be identified easily to tell them when to stop.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    If you have ever attended a Byzantine Divine Liturgy, you will see that the Kyrie was a litany that can go on for some time. It was cut down in the west more than once.

    I have never understood the western desire to rush the liturgy, git-r-done, and get home to the medieval and Renaissance equivalents of a TV ball game with chips and drinks. Maybe they needed to get to a gondola race in Venice, ya think?
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Gavin
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    CharlesW,

    Something like that, maybe. I was recently surprised to read that before Venice replaced its wooden drawbridges with arched stone it was very famous for horse racing.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    Interesting. I have read that security was tight at the chariot races in Constantinople because they were often occasions for insurrection and riots.


    it amazes me that the Kyrie has been shortened to almost insignificance. I am pretty sure I am in the only parish in town that even sings it anymore. I don't think the other parishes as much as say it. They go from, V: the weather is humid and cloudy, R: Lord have mercy, straight into the Gloria.
    Thanked by 3JulieColl noel jones, aago Gavin
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    I have always found it puzzling that there seems to be a rush with some celebrants and parishioners who are in a terrible hurry to be somewhere other than church. This is especially bothersome since the liturgy is abbreviated from what it once was. With respect to the Kyrie, there seems to be a de-emphasizing of the reality of sin and our need for mercy. The same abbreviation was done to the Confiteor, which was much more complete as originally sung.
    Thanked by 4JulieColl CharlesW noel jones, aago CHGiffen
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The liturgy was shortened and at times seems to have been lengthened again! Two such examples are the splitting of the Sanctus/Benedictus and the Agnus Dei miserere nobis/dona nobis pacem in polyphonic masses.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,210
    The splitting of the Sanctus/Benedictus wasn't just a concession to polyphonic mass settings ... for quite some time (until it was abolished rubrically), it was the custom for the Benedictus to be delayed and only sung at the Elevation.

    The penchant for composers to compose two (sometimes three, one for each invocation), Agnus Dei settings probably is a musical/textual decision/tradition that permits the final invocation of Agnus Dei and its concluding Dona nobis pacem to reflect and bestow some sense of peace at the end, as opposed to the petition Miserere nobis of the first two invocations.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,425
    Actually, Charles, singing Benedictus at the elevation makes quite a bit of sense: it is much more of an 'acclamation' than the 'memorial acclamations' that we have in the NO. But, of course, it makes equal sense as the 'add on' it is to Sanctus, when we proclaim God's holiness and power, and then acclaim Him Who is About to be Really Present.

    Concerning hurried liturgy: I will dance gleefully and sing a Te Deum when that day arrives on which I hear someone really complain obnoxiously (yea, even cantankerously) that a sporting event (or an opera, for that matter) lasts for three or four hours instead of a more convenient fifty minutes.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Gavin
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I don't know what significance there is to it (I can read into it from several angles), but when spoken, the 9-fold alternates between priests and servers:

    P: Kyrie eleison
    S: Kyrie eleison
    P: Kyrie eleison
    S: Christe eleison
    P: Christe eleison
    S: Christe eleison
    P: Kyrie eleison
    S: Kyrie eleison
    P: Kyrie eleison

    Not a proper call/response ... more of a 'perpetual motion'

    What are your thoughts on this?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I think the priest-server back-and-forth here, as well as the duplicative Confiteor, wherein the PRIEST asks the servers to pray for him, is evidence of a much less clericalized vision of liturgy, wherein the priest is one of many, as opposed to a lone performer with spectators.
    Thanked by 3JulieColl Gavin Andrew_Malton
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Well said, indeed, Adam. What is also helpful to the priest in the EF is the physical orientation of facing east and bowing profoundly while he recites the Confiteor, strking his breast three times, once each, at the mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

    Also, having to bow to the servers on each side of him where he beseeches them "to pray to the Lord our God for me."

    Also, what is helpful for the priest is that after saying this prayer, the servers turn toward him and say, "May almighty God be merciful unto you, and forgiving you your sins, bring you to everlasting life."

    After this, the servers/people----let's not forget that the last legislation from PIus XII re: the EF foreshadows the Conciliar Sacrosanctum Concilium in envisioning the people saying this as well---- make their Confiteor and afterwards the priest repeats the prayer the servers said to him at the end of his confession and says, "May the almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon, absolution and remission of our sins."

    After this is the beautiful "O God, Thou wilt turn again and bring us to life, show us, O Lord, Thy mercy, O Lord, hear my prayer" versicles which serve as it were, as a fitting end and closure to the Penitential Rite of the Mass.

    (One other striking example of sacerdotal humility and contrition is when the priest strikes his breast and says the only words that are spoken in an audible voice during the Canon of the Mass: Nobis quoque peccatoribus (To us also, Thy sinful servants, confiding in the multitude of Thy mercies.) )

    Now here comes the relevant question: Since Vatican II said no change should be made in the Mass unless the good of the faithful genuinely and certainly requires it, is it not time to re-visit the decision by Arbp. Bugnini and his committee of "experts" to alter radically the structure, substance, and orientation of the Penitential Rite in light of the lived experience of the last fifty years?

    Just askin'.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    Since we just spent a fortune on the revised missal and worship aids, I think most would say, "not now."
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I imagine we're also going to be spending a lot of money on lawyers, real estate agents and bulldozers in NYC soon. ; )
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,996
    Could be. Smaller dioceses are not rolling in cash, but maybe things are better in the larger places. I don't know what is going on in NY, but am not any fan of the leadership there.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    What I should have said is that as happy as I am to see the new translations and the fact that, liturgically speaking, things are headed in a better direction, I just wonder if the rate of improvement can outlast the rate of attrition.

    Otherwise, at some point in the distant future, we'll have a much improved liturgy, but will there be any Catholic churches or schools left?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I think the priest-server back-and-forth here, as well as the duplicative Confiteor, wherein the PRIEST asks the servers to pray for him, is evidence of a much less clericalized vision of liturgy, wherein the priest is one of many, as opposed to a lone performer with spectators.


    Just as arguably, it could be evidence of a much more clericalized liturgy, in which it was obvious that the servers would be fellow clerics and nobody would dream of laymen taking any part in the sacred action whatsoever.

    I tend to suspect that is more true of Rome and the large cathedrals and monasteries where the liturgy was principally developed, but I couldn't say for certain.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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