When the pastor asks...
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    ... that all offertory hymns be about offering ourselves, what's that leave? Honestly, the only hymns that come to mind that are specifically about that would be stuff like:

    Take our hands
    Take our bread
    Here I Am Lord
    One Bread One Body
    We Remember
    Here I Am, God

    So...

    Why is it when given this directive that the only hymns that spring to mind are from the Guitar 101 learn-to-play book?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Take our hands, but leave the feet. I need them for the pedalboard.
    Take our bread, and send Twinkies. They taste much better.
    Here I am Lord, she's over there Lord, everybody's somewhere Lord.
    One Bed, three bodies, sounds terribly French to me.
    We remember - What did you say?
    Here I am, God, like I ever needed to tell You that.

    I don't have an answer. I have mentioned in another post that I am using Ritual Song which has maybe 4 communion hymns that don't sound like a hippie folk concert. Our next hymnal will have better, I will see to that.
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  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    You forgot Ashes, that quintessential Lenten song. Perhaps it is appropriate in you situation....
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Try this one: Let thy Blood in mercy poured. But then maybe your pastor won't like it.
    Thanked by 4CharlesW TCJ Casavant Organist Mary Ann
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I should mention that "Christian Love" is acceptable as a theme for the Offertory, too.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Try this one: Let thy Blood in mercy poured. But then maybe your pastor won't like it.


    I'd like to try, but... it has to be in the hymnal (Word and Song) with an occasional piece being played from Worship III. As for what the pastor will and won't like, I'm not sure. He's new -- very new -- to this parish but I already have an overhaul in process!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Let They Blood... has become one of our Good Friday staples.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    The reason is very simple. In the NO the Offertory was replaced by the Presentation of the Gifts, which distorts the purpose of the Offertory, and has eliminated all the historical prayers that were used as part of the Offertory, (all referring to the sacrifice which is about to be confected, etc.)

    You can read a lot about this in the thread, "The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy".

    We just did an in depth look at the Offertory on that thread which delves into this very subject.

    Hence why you will not find any music (or text) that talks about 'offering ourselves' before VII. It is because the Offertory has (had) nothing to do with what WE offer, it has to do with what Christ offers to the Father in the sacrament through the hands of the priest, (In Personae Christi).
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  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Hah. Well, yeah! My question was a bit rhetorical, a bit frustration, a bit a plea for help from others who have dealt with similar situations. None of the previous churches I have worked for have had the obsession with "offering oneself" so it's, frankly, unfamiliar territory, though I suppose one is likely to run into it one time or another. My time happens to be about now.

    See, I'm looking for tactful ways to deal with this, keep decent music, and not get fired. In the past I was rather untactful and would just tell the pastor straight out what I thought if I disagreed. That never worked well!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Well, it never works well if you wish to play music for the NO and get paid for it (and you know the truth about it all, and your conscience is acting up!)

    Just remember, one can be tactful and still tell the truth. However, that might get other consciences to act up, and they may come back and bite you!
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    In my defense, I rather fell into this. If I could get a job playing for the EF, I'd be out of here in a flash. Unfortunately, one has to pay the bills...
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  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    Try this.
    Miller hymn.pdf
    81K
    Thanked by 3TCJ irishtenor CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    There are a few good hymn writers here in the CMAA... perhaps you could commission (and pay) them to write a few good hymns on this theme.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I would love to, however, it's been stipulated: I have to stay with the hymnal!

    (That said, I have no qualms about at least looking into what's being offered here, so thanks!)
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Is it illegal to tape/glue a page into the front/back of a hymnal? ;)
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I worked at more than one church in Canada that had COMPANIONS ON THE JOURNEY taped into CBWII. It must have been a Diocese mandate or something.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Haha! Maybe I'll have to try that!

    At my last parish, we made a Eucharistic hymn supplement that was tucked into the back of all hymnals. Of course, the pastor approved of that action.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Give it time. If this is a new pastor, he may not have much pastoral experience. If you need the job, and you can do it without violence to your conscience, follow orders. Be patient. Rome wasn't built in a day. Watch and listen and do as you have been asked.
    Thanked by 1TCJ
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The pastor probably has never seen a Graduale Romanum in his life, so he has no idea that the Church provides a standard repertoire of offertory texts for the modern Roman Rite whose themes are quite varied.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I asked him about singing the propers, but he didn't know what they were. When I explained, he said that would be redundant. Thus ended that part of the conversation.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    kenstb

    From your post It occurred to me that:

    Rome wasn't built in a day, however, it may have been destroyed in one.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    No francis...it took about 40 years.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The modern world is so much more efficient.

    It sounds like it's time to start looking for opportunities somewhere else.
  • Xav
    Posts: 23
    Although it won’t be in the prescribed hymnal, O God we Give Ourselves Today by Fr. Anthony Nye, S.J. might satisfy the requirement of a sound offertory hymn with a self-offering sentiment. If is popularly sung to MARTYRDOM.

    O God we give ourselves today
    With this pure host to Thee,
    The self same gift which Thy dear Son
    Gave once on Calvary.

    Entire and whole our life and love
    With heart and soul and mind
    For all our sins and faults and needs,
    Thy Church and all mankind.

    With humble and with contrite heart
    This bread and wine we give,
    Because Thy Son once gave Himself
    And died that we might live.

    Though lowly now, soon by Thy word
    This bread and wine will be
    The very body of our Lord,
    His soul and deity.

    His very body offered up,
    A gift beyond all price,
    He gives to us, that we may give,
    In loving sacrifice.

    O Lord who took on human life
    as water mixed with wine,
    grant through this sacrifice that we
    may share Thy life divine.
    Thanked by 1TCJ
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Our offering of ourselves to God is an important part of daily Christian life in the world. However, this is not at all, except perhaps tangentially, what the offertory at mass is about. The offertory at mass, whether the NO or the EF (Francis!), is about the offering of 'the work of human hands' and 'fruit of the vine' to God, which he then offers back to us as spiritual food, the very body and blood of Christ. It is also our sacrificial offering of this very Christ himself to God. So, an offertory hymn (or anthem) should be a text of solid literary and musical worth which refers with some profundity to this miracle, as well as, perhaps, the day's lectionary. Take our hands, take our bread, here am I Lord, and ditties of this sort are not proper as offertory hymns at mass. They have nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the realities of the offertory of a Catholic mass. In fact, they are so subjectively awful that they should never be sung at any point in the mass. It is worth noting that everything in a hymnal is not necessarily suitable for Catholic liturgical proceedings.... especially if that hymnal is a 'Catholic' one!
    Thanked by 2hilluminar TCJ
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    try a mashup of one of the hymns in your hymnal, or their refrain, with interspersed verses from appropriate psalms sung by the choir or cantor. Not joking. I think sometime you have to move sideways in odd directions to start moving towards propers. Once you have an acceptance of the alteration of congregation, choir or cantor, have the choir sing an SEP as the inserted piece. Pick just one SEP, preferably one which will not strain the pastors sense of what should be sung, so then you are singing refrain / Sep/ Refrain. After some time, when the congregation is as familiar with the Sep, switch it out to Sep / Psalm alteration. suggested sep 'let my prayer enter your presence' which is very short. I know this idea might horrify people. but you have to work out how to get from here to there. no point saying I wouldn't start from here, if that's where you are. Add the SEP words to the back of your hymnal as a 'Supplement of modern newly composed hymns.' Wouldn't want to ignore all the nice new music that modern composers are writing and favour all that old (70's ) stuff. We have to be progressive, listen to new composers!
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Your pastor suffers from Pragmatism Syndrome, which began (in force) around 1960 or so in musico/liturgical circles. "Can't sing voluntaries about the BVM during the Offertory...." was one example. His 'redundant' remark is another, although you could ask 'redundant of WHAT?' since he does not recite any of the Propers during the OF Mass.

    Ah, well.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Pragmatism Syndrome as a musical matter started centuries before 1960. (And architecturally in the USA, it started circa 1930.) My point in sharing this observation is that the syndrome is far more deeply rooted than merely Vatican II reform issues, and conflating the two is likely to lead to disappointment and resentment.
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  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Dad29:

    Since you mentioned Marian voluntaries, I'll add something else. I'm restricted to zero Marian hymns aside from once a month for the recessional, although I don't think it's mandatory to even do that.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    Tua Munera = " What you gave us for the Taking", it was in wlp , and Take Lord Receive slj with the right accomp.
    Thanked by 1TCJ
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Is "Let all mortal flesh keep silence" in your hymnal? If it is, "our full HOMAGE to DEMAND" seems to meet his need of being about us and our offering, doesn't it?

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  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Is "Let all mortal flesh keep silence" in your hymnal? If it is, "our full HOMAGE to DEMAND" seems to meet his need of being about us and our offering, doesn't it?


    Indeed it is, and it's also one that came to my mind. The question is if he would deem it to much of an Eucharistic hymn to be used for the offertory (something he told me he doesn't want). I'm not sure on that one since I don't know him well enough, but I think I'll try it soon and see what he says.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I asked him about singing the propers, but he didn't know what they were. When I explained, he said that would be redundant.


    To sing a DIFFERENT text every week???
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  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    The redundancy is there for a purpose, it's never made sense to me why some care to hide the true message of the liturgy.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    Re: Let All Mortal Flesh

    The question is if he would deem it to much of an Eucharistic hymn to be used for the offertory (something he told me he doesn't want).

    As one of the forum's resident Byzantine rite choristers, allow me to point out that "Let all mortal flesh" is explicitly a hymn from the offertory of the Liturgy of St James, accompanying the great entrance. It's also used on occasion in the regular liturgy.

    As a recently pointed out on the NLM, the Byzantine rite retains the Roman rite's former comfort with prolepsis.

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/06/the-theology-of-offertory-part-6.html
    Thanked by 6Jenny CharlesW TCJ eft94530 Gavin CHGiffen
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    the syndrome is far more deeply rooted than merely Vatican II reform issues, and conflating the two is likely to lead to disappointment and resentment.


    It certainly became more virulent post-VatII; the derogation of mystery, sacred language, and sacred music are all symptomatic. No question, the 'low' Mass was a pragmatic response to something (perceived or real); do you have more examples?
  • Xav
    Posts: 23
    I heard Receive O Father, God of Might by Fr David Coffey sung to TALLIS' CANON today. It is another that won't be in the prescribed hymnal but which might suit the purpose.

    Receive O Father, God of might,
    this host unblemished in Your sight.
    Unworthy servants though we be,
    we come before You, trustingly.

    This saving chalice too, we bring,
    receive it graciously O king.
    With fragrant odour may it rise
    to Your high throne above the skies.

    For all the living and the dead,
    for our poor lives so badly led,
    we raise these gifts to You above
    and join with them ourselves in love.

    And being pleased Your gift bestow –
    the life of grace in us below.
    Not just to us this blessing send,
    to all the world let it extend.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen veromary
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    @ Francis:

    The reason is very simple. In the NO the Offertory was replaced by the Presentation of the Gifts,


    Could have fooled me. Every day the schola at our abbey chants the Offertory antiphon from the Graduale Romanum (1974 edition) in our OF Mass...

    Ora
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Yeah. But the experts' theology and the way it is described in the GIRM plus the lack of missal antiphons really shows the writers of the new missal find the Offertory chant to be superfluous and with a different theology. Witness the defense of the traditional theology by DiPippo for an example.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    TCJ, what have you been playing for offertory?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    @TCJ -- I'd like to know, too. Update?
  • MBWMBW
    Posts: 175
    After long and sometimes bitter experience, my approach would be to play whatever the pastor demands - and work hard to be able to "do my thing" in the parts of the job he leaves unlegislated. Pastors don't have to make sense from our point of view. This is one of the joys of Catholic church work.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    This is one of the joys of Catholic church work.


    The particular 'joy' rests in the fact that your time in Purgatory will be diminished.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    This is one of the joys of Catholic church work.


    Agreed, and it can make life more pleasant for you. Although as I get closer to retirement, I find I am getting more cranky and opinionated when dealing with clergy.
  • MBWMBW
    Posts: 175
    CharlesW - I am in the same stage of life. I am now more realistic about the clergy as human beings. I no longer expect an elevated perspective from them and am therefore less disappointed when things like this pragmatism syndrome arise.

    When I was new at this, everything "WAS OUTRAGE!" Now I drive home with my wife after Mass and only about half the time enumerate the ways in which the Mass was celebrated in an amateur fashion. I am able to do this calmly with little or no blood pressure rise.

    Now I concentrate my attention on making the music as beautiful as I can, with reasonable attention to the prevailing liturgical winds.

    dad29 It should go without saying that, if one can get indulgences from visiting certain places or saying certain prayers at certain times, then Catholic church musicians, whose prayers are ceaseless and sufferings are without number, are perpetually indulgenced perpetually.
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  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 411
    What do people make of this one, by Fr J Greally SJ to a pleasant tune by Sir Edward Elgar called Drake's Boughton.

    See us, Lord about your altar,
    Though so many we are one;
    Many souls by love united
    In the heart of Christ, your Son.

    Hear our prayers, O loving Father,
    Hear in them your Son our Lord;
    Hear him speak our love and worship
    As we sing with one accord.

    Once were seen the blood and water:
    Now are seen but bread and wine;
    Once in human form he suffered,
    Now his form is but a sign.

    Wheat and grape contain the meaning:
    Food and drink he is to all;
    One in him, we kneel adoring,
    Gathered by his loving call.

    Hear us yet: so much is needful
    In our frail, disordered life;
    Stay with us and tend our weakness
    Till that day of no more strife.

    Members of his Mystic Body
    Now we know our prayer is heard,
    Heard by you because your children
    Have received the eternal Word.

    I always thought it was of Anglican origin but apparently not.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Once were seen the blood and water:
    Now are seen but bread and wine;
    Once in human form he suffered,
    Now his form is but a sign.


    This is (especially in our modern environment) problematic. Is there a way in which the text can be read so as not to exclude Transubstantiation? Perhaps. I won't use any version of this.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Ben,

    You raise an intriguing question. Given that most people meet the bishop in a liturgical setting, why are the liturgies at which so many of them are met so, um, infantile? One would think that mere selfishness, if not an understanding of the liturgy and a love for God, would impel the bishops to be more vigilant about the Mass and the Divine Office.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Viola, that hymn has been discussed here in the past too, so you may be interested to see the comments at
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/2367/pbeh-discussion-see-us-lord-about-your-altar/p1
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Viola
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 411
    Would it be ok to use this hymn at the Offertory, ie before the Consecration has taken place? or do people feel it is still too confusing? If so I shall definitely drop it.
    When I was at convent school we used the tune for 'Hear thy children, gentle mother' so maybe best kept for that. Too good a melody to waste.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I would still say no, given the verse that CGZ quoted above. That is problematic from a doctrinal sense: it seems to deny Transubstantiation. Because of that, I don't think it should have ANY place in the Mass.
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