Singing the Psalms
  • darth_linux
    Posts: 120
    OK, first, I need a clarification on something.

    I have a master's degree in music education and I teach orchestra in public school, but I have no formal training in sacred music. Everything I know about singing chant I've either learned on this forum, or from Dr. Ed., or the "Master Class" book.

    Please correct me if I am wrong here:

    If I'm singing Psalms in Latin, say for Vespers or Compline, then the way I choose which mode to sing them in is based upon the mode of the Antiphon, correct?

    The correct Antiphon is given in the Liturgy of the Hours, or some other book, whatever is also specifying the psalm, correct?

    What if I intend to sing them in English and no mode or music is given whatsoever? How do I choose a melody for the antiphon and a psalm-tone for psalm?

    I have the LotH book that the Benedictines at Mount Angel Abbey use, but they have written their own Psalm-tones and melodies for the hymns and antiphons (all English text). I also have "Christian Prayer," but of course there is no musical setting for anything in that book.

    Does anyone have a suggestions on where to get melodies and mode information for Vespers sung in English? It would need to be a source that is freely avaliable on the internet, as I have zero $$$ to buy books right now.

    thanks
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    darth, If you sing the psalms during the Office, the antiphon will determine the mode of the psalm as you surmised.

    Your second question is one of the main reasons I don't like the Vat II LotH -- no antiphon melodies. I believe that some folks suggested sources for tunes, but I wasn't paying close attention. If all else fails, make up your own antiphon melodies in one of the 8 modes and then use the psalm tone that matches. Maybe someone else can point (pardon the pun) to a source for modern antiphon melodies.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    You might check with Fr Columba Kelly at St Meinrad's Archabbey. He has much newly composed or centonised chant for use at the Divine Office: such as antiphons, responsories, & cet. (He has also adapted the Gregorian ordinaries to the 'current'-and-none-too-soon-to-be-'past' language of the Novus Ordo in English.)
  • AOZ
    Posts: 369
    Another very simple way to do this, which just involves a little experimentation, but no outside resources, is take a look at the antiphon you've got in front of you. Is it musically sound and reasonably singable? Is it in a major or a minor key? What are the tonic and the dominant? Explore using the office tones (very simple) for the verses in Modes I-IV if your antiphon is written in a minor key. These are considered the minor modes because they have the minor third as part of their scale. Use V-VIII (major third in scale) if the antiphon is written in a major key. A little experimentation, and you will certainly find something that compliments the tenor of your antiphon. A stop-gap measure to be sure, but it works. Though your antiphon is not modal per se, you might uncover interesting and delightful results in combining the two worlds.
  • AOZ
    Posts: 369
    And if you are searching for a previously set antiphon, look through Collegeville, and even OCP and GIA materials for goodness sakes. It goes without saying that some are better than others, but with your good musical judgment you will find handful that can work. Be open minded.

    I've told this story before, but I have to tell it again because it still makes me laugh. In our founding days here in Auburn, we were obliged to sing the Psalms as printed in OCP's Respond and Acclaim. I don't remember which it was, but it was something written in a folksy, silly, and totally inapproriate 3/4 time signature. I got up and did it and was just embarrassed with what I was singing. I sat down and under my breath said to the person next to me, "I sounded just like Judy Collins." (yes, I know, I should have been focused on the Mass but I was still reeling from the experience). The person leaned over to me and quietly responded: "No, not at all. Joan Baez."
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I just looked up "Judy Collins" on youtube. So she sang with "The Byrds"?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    "In our founding days here in Auburn, we were obliged to sing the Psalms as printed in OCP's Respond and Acclaim."

    I would like to hear that !
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Jeffery,

    The Byrds were an all male group. Judy Collins is perhaps most famous for her rendition of "Send in the Clowns".
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    All I really know about The Byrds is some song--Light My Fire?--that has a piano solo so infantile that it is hard to believe that it was ever recorded. Is that The Byrds?
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Oh that's "The Doors" -- wow, bad doesn't quite describe it. Oh well, I guess the forum shouldn't be used to cast stones on groups like this.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Jeffery,

    Actually "Light my Fire" was done by the Doors. The organ solo actually is quite good in its minimalism. It offers a pop version of what jazz artists (and Ray Manzarek was one) were doing at the time. It is, unfortunately, a solo meant to appeal to listeners who were "self medicated" but that's beside the point, musically.

    The Byrds were a group that made a good living playing their own versions of folk artists' tunes, like Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine Man" and Pete Seeger's "Turn, turn, turn." They also did "8 Miles High" and "The Ballad of Easy Rider". Later they were pioneers of country rock.

    While I don't like the idea of using this music in the sacred liturgy, it is well crafted and sociologically relevant to its time.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Michael, it seems like for most of this music, you really "had to be there." Wow. But you know, maybe it does have some relevance since it coincided with a time in which it seemed obvious to people that chant in liturgy had to go. There was really something strange afoot in those days, I gather.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    Jeffrey- You are simply hopeless on the rock music of the 60's/early 70's. I spent my formative years in San Francisco at the feet of the Grateful Dead and the Airplane and suffering from a mad desire to be Joan Baez. At the same time, I loved chant. It's simply a matter of knowing what belongs at Fillmore Auditorium or the Avalon Ballroom and what belongs at the Mass.

    I've done a fair amount of matching Latin antiphons with English psalms and you can't go straight across in the Liber Usualis, the way you could if the psalm were in Latin. Why? Because English isn't Latin. AOZ's advice is excellent. You often have to simplify the psalm tone ending, especially if you're going to be joined by the people in the pews. When I think folks are going to be particularly challenged, I see if I can keep the same psalm tone. (We usually only do two psalms and I select the antiphons that I think are the most beautiful and have the most profound texts. I do keep them with the assigned psalms.)

    Would it be easier if I could just go by the book (LU)? You bet.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    we were obliged to sing the Psalms as printed in OCP's Respond and Acclaim


    I forget, which oblate is that? I belong to the order of Marierites, who have vowed only to sing psalms composed in the Gregorian modes and with free rhythm.

    And Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey. It sounds to me like slipping into the ostinato from "In-a-gadda-da-vida" on the organ pedals in the middle of schola rehearsal could do wonders for your street cred.

    By the way, Judy Collins was a good friend of Ned Rorem, who apparently wrote one of his most famous songs for her (viz "Early in the Morning").
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Hey MJB, we might have bumped into each other at the Avalon or the Fillmore! I took the city busses to the Avalon in '65 when a frosh in HS! I did actually bump into Joplin physically before I had a clue who she was; Big Brother was 4th on a playbill behind Quicksilver Messenger. Janis was in that fuzzy satin fabric and was, indeed, replete with 750 of Southern Comfort. When next I looked, the woman that jossled me was wailing on stage!
    Okay, boomer/hippie pop quiz, no referencing allowed:
    Who was the female lead singer for the Airplane BEFORE Grace Slick?
    Which band premiered "C'mon people now, let's get together?"
    What band did Skip Spence leave to later form MOBY GRAPE?
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Mary Jane, I can't wait until the chant conference to talk to you! My generation grew up on 70s rock, disco and early New Wave. One of my favorite songs from college was, get this... "Kyrie eleison" by Mr. Mister.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    In addition to AZ's helpful advice, I can commend my book to you, darth_linux: By Flowing Waters, which has been commended by many for its sensible Englishing of the Psalm tones. All the rules for doing so are in the front matter.

    I might be able to have a copy sent to you if you give me your mailing address off-list. I can also send you a complete English Compline, when I finish updating the files in Finale. Do you use Finale?

    Blessings,
    Paul
  • AOZ
    Posts: 369
    Jeffrey is not the fuddy duddy he pretends to be. Ask him about going through a desert on a horse with no name, and why Oz never gave anything to the tin man, that he didn't, didn't already have. And then talk to him about Elton John - if you have time. (Sorry to give you away,Jeff. I couldn't allow this farce to go on any longer...)

    I'll just keep working on the Psalms.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    But what about the "topic of Sir Galahad" (from another unabashed fan of America's music of the 70s)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    And I thought Jeffrey loved the music of Byrd.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Great Documentary title: From Byrd to The Byrds. (I might add: a history of decline)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Wait: I thought it was the TROPIC of Sir Galahad.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Now, now Jeffrey,
    Some of us, well, me...
    consider the Byrds to have been the closest American equivilent to the Beatles, no mean feat that.
    I can hear the Bells of Rhymney.
    And mon ami, Arlene, one doesn't include a reference to serious American pop with a reference to "America," a duo of doubtful significance compared to, argggghhhh, the Iggles (Eagles.)
    Still waiting, MJB.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Charles, YOU a pop snob? Look at the charts of American pop from '72-'79 and you will find that America and the Eagles had about as many hits, although the Eagles finished a bit stronger. Chicago, of course, toasted them both. The Eagles, whom I liked until that lousy recent release, have a somewhat mythical status due to the sales of their first greatest hits album (right up there with Thriller, Rumors, and Dark Side of the Moon in curious longevity). Anyway, I'm saying they were anywhere nearly as creative as the boys from California (a little hometown attitude, there?) and none of their individual parts made names for themselves -- perhaps because none of them was as self righteous as Don Henley, but I digress. America's importance? They took the CSN sound into the mainstream by applying a more 70s outlook to the lyrics. Take "Horse", "Tinman" and "Sister Golden Hair" and I think they stack up pretty favorably the Eagles hits of those same years. They just didn't have the good fortune to stumble on Joe Walsh in the latter part of the decade. Also losing Dan Peek hurt them more than they probably thought.

    Back to chant
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Does anyone remember Virgil Fox at the Fillmore? He really did perform there. Of course, I was only three at the time. ;-)
  • AOZ
    Posts: 369
    Charles, Charles in CenCA - pardon moi! You see, my interests have always remained in more remote climes. Naturally, the radio was on in my youth - it was inescapable! But unlike Jeffrey or Michael or apparently you as well, I never paid any attention to who was singing what or who or how or why or what it all meant. Sounds. mere fragments. Maybe even noise. I was focused on Bach, Mozart, Schumann, Schubert, and in lighter moments, which were few and far between, Gershwin. Forgive me my ignorance.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Fox did an all Bach concert at the Fillmore on a Rodgers, I believe, organ he toured with. He did this to a light show. It was totally outrageous, but what else would anyone expect of Fox? There was a recording available at one time. I suspect you are just too young to remember it all. The sixties - you really had to be there. Strawberry fields forever. ;-)
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Yes, yes...back to chant...in a minute.
    Mike, here's the rub w/ Eagles v. America. The Eagles, either with Bernie Leadon or Joe Walsh (who IS our Clapton,) could actually perform live! Beautifully. America do that? Barely. Live or Memorex? That's what this forum is all about: we must be able to make it LIVE! (In either pronunciation.)
    Were I really a pop snob, I'd have to bow at the feet of the Moody Blues or Pink Floyd, which I cannot. And, as CharlesW points out, you really had to be there, despite the admonition that if you remember the 60's, you weren't REALLY there. I just didn't take any drugs, so that explains my current state in so many facets.
    I think Fox only played Fillmore East, Charles, if memory serves.
    And Arlene, nothing to forgive as you are incapable of ignorance! If you'd added R. Strauss to your list I'd be on a plane to Alabama right now, with Gerschwin on the IPhone during the flight.
    And before returning to our local programming, Jerusualem quae and Locus iste, one more for Mike this time:
    Desert island- who do you take: Chicago or Earth, Wind and Fire?

    PS. Anyone that must use OCP R&A like myself- how did today's responsorial go for your congregations? I actually thought it a welcome addition away from meter, and yet not difficult for the PIPs to enjoin.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Charles, I have 2 America live albums, which both sound as good as the Eagles live stuff before Joe. Not sure what you mean. Of course ANYONE sounds better that CSN live. Their best live sound was with Stephen Colbert filling in for Neil Young...
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    BTW our "Clapton" was Duane Allman, my friend...
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    It's remarkable how much of this thread that I can't understand, but I do know that group called Chicago - the trombonist in particular.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    and yes, that Responsorial Psalm today was wonderful. Longer antiphons please!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Well, Jeffrey, I think we've taken the road less needed to travel farther than necessary. I'm grateful neither Professor Mahrt nor the youngin's have chided us for our little acid trip.
    I'm quite happy to have done both the very ethereal "Jerusalem quae" and the Bruckner today with real subtlety and precision.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I hope Mr. Neil Young will remember that a southern man does not require his presence, in any case.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Charles, you are right about Fox at the Fillmore East. I was really there during the 60's and do remember it. I am allergic to so many things that drugs were never an option. I liked both Chicago and Earth, Wind and Fire, although I do believe Chicago sang more durable songs. That may explain their greater success.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    (off-topic) Regarding Virgil Fox at the Filmore East:
    http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/listings/2000/2040/
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    CW - We actually had Earth Wind & Fire perform at our corporate conference the week before last. I call that pretty durable!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I am surprised they are still around. I do remember Chicago essentially pushing Earth Wind & FIre lower on the charts in the earlier days. Clive Davis, no small authority on the subject, also thought Chicago's songs were more lasting and durable than Earth, Wind and Fire's. If I remember correctly, Chicago had a return to popularity with a new lead singer later on. As for Fox, there was only one of him and there may never be another. He was a definitely a diva and a half.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Actually EWF first hit the charts in '75, about 4-5 years after Chicago made their name. As Chicago declined in the late 70s, EWF was hitting its stride, with 1980 being its biggest year. Admittedly Chicago's tunes do hold up a bit better since funk has a very dated sound. Nonetheless, EWF and Tower of Power are the favs with musicians more than Chicago due to their superb performances.

    Chicago faded a bit in the very late 70s when guitarist Terry Kath died, but had a nice comeback in 1982. Their work since about 1990, the year that Peter Cetera left, has been rather embarrassing.

    I love talking horn bands!
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Then you're gonna love this...
    Which was the better BLOOD, SWEAT AND TEARS incarnation, first version or second with David Clayton-Thomas (RIP?)
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Definitely the DC-T years. The first album was a bit too unfocused.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    BTW He is still quite alive
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    "As for Fox, there was only one of him and there may never be another. He was a definitely a diva and a half."

    One of the younger generation stepping up to the challenge:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtKgOZX3DcU
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