They Ate and Had Their Fill--2-pt des pres adaptation (ST and AB editions)
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    From his Missa Da Pacem ("Et resurrexit" from the Credo). This is a setting of the "Manducaverunt" text.
    Manducaverunt-des Pres-AB.pdf
    95K
    Manducaverunt-des Pres-ST.pdf
    103K
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    I get plenty of criticism here for being attentive to intonation, so, discount my comment all you like. But are you sure you are being true to Josquin? This, again, does not seem right to me. The second measure already looks wrong, it would imo have to be a G# in the key you have chosen.

    I have a special affection for Josquin, he is up there with Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven for me.
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    I presume you're talking about the AB version with 2 sharps . . . I'm not sure what the problem is with the G natural.

    And I can assure you that I'm not taking liberties with the music. No, I don't have a scholarly edition in hand, but I'm trying to be careful to eliminate all typos before I post. If you're incredulous about some of these items, you'll need to take it up with Misters Soderlund and Scott (editors), or with blessed Josquin himself.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Yes, the AB version. The first bar, E is a perfect fifth above A. The second bar, in your version, the E would have to be a major sixth above the G, and then, either the G goes higher to make that interval pure, or the E goes lower. If the former, then the D in the higher voice is out of tune, a mis-tuned fifth. If the latter, then the higher voice is expected to change intonation on a repeated note. That might happen in Mozart, sometimes, but I don't think it would be Josquinic.

    A very simple fix, for the second measure, is provided by 'musica ficta': the G is a sharp.
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    I'll ask someone else to weigh in here, as the ficta there doesn't jive with my experience singing early music.

    I did find the score at IMSLP for comparison's sake. No indication of ficta (it's down in the "Et Resurrexit" section, m. 98).

    http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/b/b9/IMSLP134740-WIMA.dd67-3_1_Credo_Partitur.pdf
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    The piece in question is in the pure Dorian mode on E (transposed down a step with no accidentals, it would be D Dorian, the scale beginning on D and using just white keys) ... or think (plagal) Gregorian Mode II (same as Mode I except for range).

    The tonic is E, the subdominant is A. The step up E to F# is 9/8 (wide), and the step up D to E is 10/9 (narrow). Similarly, the step up A to B is 9/8 (wide), and the step up G to A is 10/9 (narrow). Thus, at the beginning, both the Bass and Alto descend (from A and E, respectively) by a narrow whole step. Thus, the G in the Bass tunes to the E in the Alto with the (correct) ratio of 5/3. The Alto descends by a narrow whole step from E to D, which tunes with the previously sung G in the Bass as a pure fifth, while the Bass descends from G to F# by a 15/16 half-step, and the F# in the Bass tunes with the D in the Alto by the (correct) ratio of 8/5.

    No ficta G# is necessary.

    Thanked by 3mrcopper Gavin ryand
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    CHG, you are getting good! And even better, you are right. My apologies, Heath. Sorry to waste your time rechecking. I misled myself with the modern key signature. Had I seen it rightly as modern E minorish, one sharp, it would have fallen into place better, with the opening A and E as Chuck says, tuned low a small whole step above the respective G and D (or if you prefer the G&D high near the A&E).
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    Heath, I'm not seeing your scores attached on the page here. Are they still there, or am I missing something?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    Richard, I see them. Maybe something at your end?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    Oh, how curious: it depends the URL used to reach the page.

    At this URL, the attachments appear:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/10789/they-ate-and-had-their-fill-2-pt-des-pres-adaptation-st-and-ab-editions/p1

    At this one, they don't:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/123656#Comment_123656

    Thanks for checking, folks;

    and thanks for posting this, Heath.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Now that is interesting. I am seeing the same behavior here.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    Is that a "bug" or "feature" of the forum software?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    The file attachment feature is probably working as designed; it just wasn't designed to handle both types of URL.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    Seems almost moot now, but I passed along the ficta issue to a mentor of mine, retired musicology professor and early music specialist:

    "I looked at the Josquin and can find no plausible reason for applying ficta. The b-flat is signed, there is no tritone that needs fixing and no alteration required to make a cadence."

    Just FYI.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    That's my sense of the situation, too, Heath.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,482
    wonderful! I don't suppose you could do this for TB??
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    ghmus7, I'll try to get you a TB version early next week!
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    TB version attached.
    Manducaverunt-des Pres-TB.pdf
    103K
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,482
    Dear Heath:
    I thank you very much! This will be great for our schola.
    Thanked by 1Heath
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