New Organ Installation
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Recently, a local church had a new pipe-digital organ installed. Allen did the actual organ part, but all the fabrication (design, casing, non-speaking pipe installation, etc.) was done by a few people that I know personally.

    I've attached a few pictures of the organ.

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  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Are there any functional pipes? Who made the console? Do you have pics of the console?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Where is this and how many pipe ranks are included? Who built the pipe ranks?
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I think the top picture is the only one of the console that I saw.

    Allen Organ Company refurbished pipes (that work) and made a custom console. The larger pipes are fake (non-speaking, actually, but are real pipes) and the few that are functional are the small ones that are almost hidden by the false flowers.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I don't know how many ranks there are. I'm getting the information second-hand, so I only know what I've been told.

    The church is Maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Bourbonnais, Illinois.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Must be new. It's not listed on the Allen company web site of Allen organs in Illinois.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    The final work was just done a couple weeks ago. These pictures were taken Saturday. Allen has yet to get their photographer there.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Do these friends of yours do their fake-pipe work professionally?
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Note the clarification later on: the "fake pipes" are actually non-speaking pipes, but real. They were taken from an old organ. Sorry for the confusion.


    As to people who did most of the fabrication, they don't specialize in organs, but if they were asked to make fake pipes, they could do so. It wasn't necessary in this case.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    There are a couple of large pipe organs in my town with fake pipe screens in front of the real pipes. That was fashionable at one time and was fairly common. Fads come and fads go.

    This installation will show up in one of the organ magazines eventually and will have more information on specs by then.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    These are real pipe non-speaking screens in front of speaker cabinets. New age technology using an old fashion!
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    Respectfully, I'm deeply unimpressed and indeed disappointed. This is precisely what I don't think that churches should be doing! The case has no aesthetic integrity, and I have already made my thoughts on electronics known elsewhere in this forum.
    Thanked by 6Gavin francis Daniel Bennett Page M. Jackson Osborn Richard Mix Ben
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I'm not a fan of electronics either. Still, considering what some churches are doing (guitars *cough*) I consider this a better alternative.

    I had some disappointment when I heard they passed on getting a full pipe organ because they couldn't fit what they wanted into the church. If what they wanted wouldn't fit into the church, then what they wanted was likely too much for that particular church. I would gladly take a smaller full pipe over the combination. Then again, I wasn't the least bit involved in the process, so what I would want had no impact on what happened.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    I went to their website and I am disappointed that they're spending their summer music camp for children focusing on liturgical drumming and dancing. The exact opposite of what they should be doing.
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    Thanked by 1Daniel Bennett Page
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Ooooooh, yeah. I wouldn't recommend their music program over there. They could do a lot with what they have, but the direction is wrong.
    Thanked by 1Daniel Bennett Page
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Ohhh, The lengths to which people will go to deceive. (Themselves as well as others!)
    Rather fitting that it is set off by an array of plastic flowers.
    The triumph of tastelessness (yet again).
    This is perfectly awful (and probably sounds even worse).
    And yet the church is so nice. Are there pictures of the sanctuary?
    Thanked by 1Palestrina
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I am thinking they may have spent enough on this Allen and the display pipes to have rebuilt or restored an adequate pipe instrument.
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    We cannot say we do not like they're music programs because we do not agree what they so. They're music and art are right for his church and so is his organ to, I think good work and well done. As the saying, 'the duck with different feathers is not worse'. Letus support what he does in his church. It all goes to our Yaweh, Jehovah, or whatever we call our redeemer God. Congratulations!!! :)
    Is my two cents.
    Phil
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    We cannot say we do not like they're music programs because we do not agree what they so.


    Yes, actually, what we "like" is a personal preference based upon what we agree with.

    Some don't "like" my music program, because they don't agree with what I do. That's fine. But it's not wrong for people to express an opinion, as some here have done.

    Personally, I tend to judge more in terms of quality - and there are legitimately parishes of which I have been known to say "Generally, I think their concepts of music and liturgy are a bit goofy, and tend towards the pop music variety, but their music director is LEGIT - in that he's a fine musician and what they do there is always done VERY WELL and with great quality."
    Thanked by 1Palestrina
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    Oops - I meant to say we should not insult or say they're wrong if we don't agree or like what they do. Is this better?
    Ph
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I am thinking they may have spent enough on this Allen and the display pipes to have rebuilt or restored an adequate pipe instrument.


    I believe you are correct!
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Ohhh, The lengths to which people will go to deceive. (Themselves as well as others!)
    Rather fitting that it is set off by an array of plastic flowers.
    The triumph of tastelessness (yet again).
    This is perfectly awful (and probably sounds even worse).
    And yet the church is so nice. Are there pictures of the sanctuary?


    I hate the plastic flowers. No idea why they'd put them there.

    I'll search for some sanctuary pictures. They are around somewhere.
    Thanked by 1Daniel Bennett Page
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I found the sanctuary pictures. Note that the same people who did the casing for the organ were also commissioned to do many of the furnishings in the sanctuary.

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  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Here's a page on the organ itself with pictures of the console:

    http://www.allenorgan.com/www/allenews/organoftheweek/2014/20140502/OrganOfTheWeek.html
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I skipped the couplers and stuff when writing the list.

    Specifications:

    SWELL:
    Bourdon Doux 16'
    Flute Celeste II 8'
    Rohr Bourdon 8'
    Viola Pomposa 8'
    Viola Celeste 8'
    Octave Geigen 4'
    Traverse Flute 4'
    Nasard 2-2/3'

    Vox Humana 8'
    Oboe 8'
    Clairon 4'
    Trompette 8'
    Contre Trompette 16'
    Fourniture IV
    Tierce 1-3/5'
    Piccolo 2'


    GREAT:
    Violone 16'
    Diapason 8'
    Bourdon 8'
    Harmonic Flute 8'
    Gamba 8'
    Octave 4'
    Flute 4'
    Twelfth 2-2/3'

    Chimes
    Tromba 8'
    Cymbale III
    Mixture IV
    Fifteenth 2

    CHOIR:
    Erzahler 16'
    Holz Gedackt 8'
    Erzahler 8'
    Erzahler Celeste 8'
    Prinzipal 4'
    Koppelflote 4'
    Erzahler Celeste II 4'
    Oktav 2'

    Trompette Des Fondateurs 8'
    Krummhorn 8'
    Rankett 16'
    Zimbel III
    Quintflote 1-1/3'


    PEDAL:
    Contre Violone 32'
    Diapason 16'
    Bourdon 16'
    (Sw) Bourdon Doux 16'
    (Gt) Violone 16'
    Octave 8'
    Gedackt Flote 8'
    Choralbass 4'

    Clarion 4'
    Trumpet 8'
    (Sw) Contre Trompette 16'
    Bombarde 16'
    Contre Bombarde 32'
    Mixture IV
    Flute 4'



  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    How big is the church, and how often do you think they'll use the 32' s?
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Hm. I've only been inside that church twice (?) in my life. I'm thinking it can hold about 350 people, tops, because it's slightly smaller than a church I used to work for which could hold about 400. As to how often they will use that massive stop, I've no idea. I don't know how much they use the organ since I never attend Mass there. That said, I think it will get some use because they do a lot with music over there including concerts, I believe.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    I had an Allen salesman talk to me about what their training is. The spend months in marketung classes, where they learn how to sell sell. Its not about the music for heavens sake!
    I have personally heard these statements:
    Pipe organs go out of tune all the time and cost a great deal to maintain. Our organs never go out of tune.pipe organs are obsolete and ours are the latest coming thing.
    What I really regret is how the AGO has caved in to big money. Witness the full page ads and sponsoring of events etc. I know for a fact that Allen offers big kickbacks to organists who convince churches to buy their product. I have seen this several times. Since the product is in a way, a false representation, being a digital reproduction of the actual real thing, one should not be surprised at the marketing ethics.
    Ill take 5 real ranks over 50 fake ones any day.
    Thanked by 5CharlesW M. Jackson Osborn francis Ben CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    '...sell sell. Its not about the music for heavens sake!'


    Indeed, as if we couldn't have discerned as much! These people are unprincipled.
    I've noticed, even, that allen has taken to refering to themselves as 'organbuilders' in their ads. There are laws that require a product called ice cream to actually be made of dairy produce. Ditto with other foods and other subjects of commerce.There should be laws that prohibit labelling a product an organ unless its sound is made solely by wind flowing through organ pipes. Anything else should be required to be identified as an organ simulacrum or synthesiser.
    Thanked by 2Ben Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Simulacrum Corporation

    Good point. After all, people who sell plastic flowers would never think to call themselves florists.
    Thanked by 4Ben M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Gavin
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Speaking of Allen and combination installations, I got to play a massive combo at Sts. Peter and Paul in Naperville, Illinois. Yes, it's fun to play and it doesn't sound awful, but one can tell it's not a pipe organ. Fortunately, I hear the church has plans to remove it in a few years and install a full pipe organ in its place.

    I think the horizontal pipes in the picture are actual speaking pipes. I'm not sure about the others.

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  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    I'm acquainted with the director at Ss. Peter and Paul in Naperville -- sounds like they have an impressive program indeed!
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I went to their website and I am disappointed that they're spending their summer music camp for children focusing on liturgical drumming and dancing. The exact opposite of what they should be doing.


    WTF* is liturgical drumming?


    *(what the [Pope] Francis)
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    One of my favorite Allen organ salesmen used to tell me that Allen was THE OFFICIAL ORGAN OF POPE BENEDICT or "Pope Benedict's choice of organ" since they used Allen organs at one of Pope Benedict's outdoor Masses. He told this to me with a totally straight face. I laughed so hard he thought I was insane.
    Thanked by 3BruceL Palestrina Gavin
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Ask him what Pope Benedict uses at St. Peter's.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    3 manuals for 350 people?! What a joke: One manual and pedal, 8 stops would have been more than enough!
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    One of my favorite Allen organ salesmen used to tell me that Allen was THE OFFICIAL ORGAN OF POPE BENEDICT or "Pope Benedict's choice of organ" since they used Allen organs at one of Pope Benedict's outdoor Masses. He told this to me with a totally straight face. I laughed so hard he thought I was insane.


    And GE is Pope Benedict's "choice for lights," since they probably made some of them used for his masses, and Diet Coke is his "choice of soda," since some of his aides and some of the folks setting up the stadium for the mass were probably drinking it, and ...
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Oh, dear Lord. Next thing, they'll be replacing the orphreys on chasubles with sponsorship logos.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    How absolutely unthinkable.
    But, as we know, philistines are everywhere... you never know but that you may be sitting next to one.
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    I still think that this project was right for him, and even if we don't like it, we can not say he'is wrong. What he did is right for the church. But, we can be polite and say we disagree, respectful. What is wrong with electric organ sounds anyways?
    Phil Hoh
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    even if we don't like it, we can not say he'is wrong.


    Sounds an awful lot like the "dictatorship of relativism" to me.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I think if the situation were getting a digital organ because for some reason they couldn't get a pipe it would be one thing, but to go for a digital in place of a pipe when getting the pipe organ is both doable and more cost-effective is, I think, the wrong choice.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor Ben
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I still think that this project was right for him, and even if we don't like it, we can not say he'is wrong.


    You're absolutely right - being new here, you haven't been beaten down into submission or lurking status yet and i hope out never happens to you. It's amazing how simple and easy it is for people to criticize how other people decide to spend their money when they buy something that "they" do not like/approve/understand/or even have a clue about.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    While I am fully aware that this document doesn't hold the force of law anymore, it still goes to illustrate that the church DOES see a difference between pipes and circuits, and the preference is for the former. And still now, there is no document expressing anything close to the contrary. SC mentions the "pipe" organ, not just the word organ, implicitly backing this statement.

    De Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgica (1958):

    64. As a substitute, the electronic organ may be tolerated temporarily for liturgical functions, if the means for obtaining even a small pipe organ are not available. In each case, however, the explicit permission of the local Ordinary is required. He, on his part, should consult the diocesan commission on sacred music, and others trained in this field, who can make suggestions for rendering such an instrument more suitable for sacred use.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    To paraphrase, their money perish with them, since I don't care how they spend it. My own experience is that electronic organs are bad investments. In 25 years you have a box of obsolete circuitry, whereas a pipe organ is repairable in 100 years.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn francis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    May I suggest a criterion: if the building is sort of disposable and has an anticipated lifespan of 25 years, you may as well get a corresponding instrument.

    Thanked by 4CharlesW Gavin Ben Adam Wood
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    chonak, the word is 'simulacrum', not instrument. ;-} Ahhhhh.... the smell of plastic.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Sad to say, many churches are built with a 25 year lifespan in mind.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    So was VII.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    chonak, the word is 'simulacrum', not instrument.

    I think of "simulacrum" as contrasted with "organ". Even a Hammond or a kazoo is still an instrument.
    Thanked by 5melofluent Gavin Adam Wood Ben PhatFlute
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    I sometimes wonder how Allen and such companies get-record pipe sounds. Do they go around to Aeolian skinner organs in churches and record them? Or do the take old pipes from existing organs and record them in a studio? Does anyone know?
    In any case, imitation is the....
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