Thoughts on restoring vs. replacing 129 year old pipe organ

sergeantedward

I am at a church which has a Lyon & Healy Builders pipe organ, built in 1885. And I need your advice!

DAMAGE: The organ is in ROUGH (i.e. unplayable) shape. No playable stops. Half the pedals don't play notes. Every stop has multiple ciphers (literally). Also, it sounds like someone torturing a bag of cats. There is excessive water damage, wall damage, climate damage, wear and tear from a century of use, etc. And then the clincher...it has not been maintained or properly repaired EVER in the last 50 years. This knowledge comes from the "oral tradition" of parishioners of 50+ years. There is no documentation: Lyon and Healy burnt down in a fire, along with all their records. And, the church hasn't kept records on the organ maintenance (or lack thereof).

RESTORATION ESTIMATE: In 2010, the church received an estimate to restore the pipe organ: ~ $100,000. After poking around the organ for a few months, I strongly suspect this is a lowball estimate. I would safely guess the real dollar cost, with inflation too, would more accurately approach $140-150,000.

PAST EXPERIENCE: I have been at churches where complete restorations occurred, and they were completely misguided. Example: spending $250,000 to restore a poorly maintained instrument that in 1 year, sounded just as bad as before the restoration. (Actual example, from 2011.) My experience tells me that restoring an instrument that has never been maintained (or close to it) has a high probability of negative financial, not to mention musical, impact. Or, there is a point where an instrument is no longer worth restoring.

This is one (drastically oversimplified) way I'm looking at our options:

Option A: spend $150,000 on restoring. In ten to twenty years, the same problems could very likely re-occur.
Option B: spend $300,000 on a brand new organ, maintain at ~$1,000 a year (plus inflation) for the next century or two.

What are your thoughts on restoration, versus trashing an instrument and getting a new pipe organ?

noel jones, aago

Is this the one in Indiana or Iowa?

It's really impossible to give a recommendation without posting pictures, stop list and so on.

Typically an electric action pipe organ through lack of maintenance coupled with poor choice of materials may or may not be a candidate, but trackers - which I assume with the age of this one it is, are always rebuildable, unless there has been serious damage - water, that sort of thing. The ams problems are not going to recur in 10 years in a tracker, well rebuilt.

As far as:

Example: spending $250,000 to restore a poorly maintained instrument that in 1 year, sounded just as bad as before the restoration.

Is a matter for civil court. There are few builders who do not warranty their work, though if yours did not, you got what you paid for.

My wife played a large L & H for years and it is still playing nicely and is was electropneumatic.

CharlesW

I would talk to at least three rebuilders and get a more accurate picture of what can be reasonably repaired. Don't take any single assessment of the organ's condition as gospel. Some rebuilders have better reputations than others for quality work, and cheapest is not always the best.

Palestrina

Definitely get multiple opinions on the instrument. What's the specification? How many instruments by this builder survive? Has it been in the church ab initio?

How the instrument looks/sounds today may not reflect the quality of its parts at all. I'd be very reluctant to remove such an old instrument without being certain that it was beyond redemption.

I also wouldn't automatically 'rebuild', but rather restore.

Continuousbass

Doesn't Lyon & Healy still make harps? ? They were the choice instrument when I was in college.

In the 1890s the company—which used the slogan,"Everything in music"—began building pipe organs. In 1894 Robert J. Bennett came to Lyon & Healy from the Hutchens company of Boston to head their organ department. The largest surviving Lyon & Healy pipe organ is at the Our Lady of Sorrows Basilica in Chicago. It is a large organ of four manuals and 57 ranks of pipes.

They also made small pipe organs. An example survives at St. Mary's Catholic Church in Aspen Colorado. It is a two manual tracker with a 30 note straight pedalboard and 7 ranks. It is believed built around 1900, and can still be pumped by hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyon_%26_Healy

Chris Garton-Zavesky

SargeantEdward,

May I propose an answer to your question lies elsewhere. To wit:

If a person has mistreated his liver through binge drinking over a period of years, is it better to attempt to treat the sick liver or put in for a transplant? Unless the person is committed to drying out, neither will do a bit of good.

So let's say that the question is to spend money on the liver transplant, but only if this is the last money anyone in the parish has to spend for, say, 50 years. That's absurd on the face of it. It's not the result of the transplant, but what caused the necessity of the transplant. Insisting that there will be no more money spent is illogical: once you have spent money getting it in usable condition, there will be some necessary expenditure to keep it in good trim.

CharlesW

Just a thought. You might touch base with the Organ Historical Society and see if they offer any advice. Perhaps they know someone in your area you can consult with.

ghmus7

Whoever "restored" that organ ripped the church off.
There is no reason for more problems to develop, if the work was dine properly.
A fine restoration or rebuild allows the organ to play as it new and will last
For generations. But you have to employ a reputable builder. Try looking on the ABOBA website to find a builder near you.

ronkrisman

Try looking on the ABOBA website to find a builder near you.

It's APOBA.

AndrewK

I would recommend giving Roy Redman a call. http://www.redmanpipeorgans.com/

He specializes in restoring old tracker instruments that have undergone damage like you've mentioned. I currently play on one of his restorations. Not sure of the builder (he thinks H. Nelson from Durham, UK), but it dates from 1895. It came over to the US in 2009 in pieces from a redundant church in England. Tracker action in the manuals, pneumatic pedal. 10 stops on two manuals and pedal. Beautiful work!. He also replaced/re-voiced the bottom octave of the 8' Open Diapason because it was quite thin. Pictures are attached. If it's good pipe work, it can be restored and is certainly worth restoring. He is also very good at matching other pipe work to the existing instrument.

M. Jackson Osborn

What beautiful work! And beautifully restored church! Where is this?

canadash

WOW!

RMSawicki

As someone with twenty plus years of experience in the pipe organ trade, the first three things I implore you to do are 1. examine the windchests, 2. examine the windchests, and 3. examine the windchests!

The single biggest consideration in deciding between restoration and replacement is the cost-effectiveness with regard to attempting to restore windchests (and chest actions) that are that old. You could have rank after rank of magnificent, well-built and voiced, singing pipework which could easily be relocated onto new chests using modern action, but slider chests from the 19th century, if they are to be retained and reused, must necessarily be approached with museum-level attention which will, of necessity, incur major cost.

I say that NOT to discourage you...far from it...but merely to give some reality-based advice.

I would highly recommend a gentleman in Madison, Minnesota named Roland Rutz, as someone who could perhaps be of great value in examining and/or appraising an instrument such as that which you've described. I had the great joy of working with him on a project in 1997, and as I recall, his encyclopedic knowledge of 19th century American organbuilding is nothing short of awe-inspiring.

Good luck!

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

sergeantedward

I've been in touch with a number of qualified contractors recently, who have come to appraise the instrument and offer bids. However, every single one of them says that they do not offer a warranty on doing a restoration.

Not offering a warranty on $100,000 to $175,000 worth of work? That sounds insane to me. I would have assumed that any work done on an organ would be covered by a warranty. Does anyone have thoughts or related past experience?

Choirparts

This video relates to "past" experience and current issues....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPijdAQNU8A&feature=youtu.be

noel jones, aago

The critical negative comments about Herman Teller's Console are unfortunate. I worked with Henry Tellers, the grandson, and the reason that the work was often not first class was not due to any lack of ability and skill of the builders, but due to the desire of the customers to save money and do things as cheaply as possible. It is of interest that many instruments today that are considered to be second-class by second class builders were built by Catholic builders who attempted to give the organist something to play in spite of the pastor's tight hold on the purse strings.

SamuelDorlaque

A particularly important fact to keep in mind is that an organ, like a classic automobile, can be restored to even "better than new" condition. However, if one wants it to remain that way, it must be maintained faithfully. I am concerned about marketing lines that give the impression that a pipe organ will last forever, without at the same time stating that regular and faithful tuning and maintenance are mandatory. I'm not sure that even in the Midwest and South that $1000/year is a realistic quote for tuning/maintenance. We often hurt our own cause by understating forecasts.

Welcome to the MusicaSacra Forum!

Categories