The Bread That I Will Give--2-pt des Pres adaptation
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    Adapted from the Benedictus from his Missa ad fugam. TB and AT versions attached.
    Panis Quem-des Pres-AT.pdf
    89K
    Panis Quem-des Pres-TB.pdf
    89K
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    First glance, I think you missed some musica ficta opportunities. What is your source?

    William
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    William, as I understand the period of development between modality and tonality, ficta was arbitrarily applied as composer or performers preferred. So, technically, Heath didn't miss a thing by that standard did he?
    Criticism of composition, in general it seems to me, ought to have a frame of reference. Last night my schola read through about 10 of Peter Kwasniewski's pieces in his new choral compendium. I didn't necessarily agree with portions of some of them editorially. What do I do? I change them, and knowing Peter as I do and depending upon the severity of the edition, I notify him or not, as he's in Wyoming and I California.
    It might be said that music, per se, is full of "missed opportunities." YMMV.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Last sentence, very true. First sentence, I must disagree. I'd argue, and have here before, that musica ficta is a rather precise thing, invisible to us moderns tho it may be. As you probably know, sometimes historians posit that ficta was applied based on local habit, but more often, it was applied to avoid 'bad intervals' and, as I would propose to extend it, to avoid 'bad intonation'. See my lengthy, lengthy posts on the Josquin Ave Verum Corpus for more of my opinions.

    As to reading new pieces, bravo. As to communicating them to living creators, yes, please.

    Rightly or wrongly, I posted originally because a quick glance said to me that Heath may have had insufficient scholarly background, or careless copying, or ... forbid it, mea culpa, but possible: .. I jumped to erroneous conclusions.
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    I don't believe the musica ficta was ignored, looking at the raised penultimates in more than one cadential formulæ??? based on reading this score: http://imslp.org/wiki/Missarum,_Book_3_(Josquin_Desprez).
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Also interesting to note the imslp site cites Wikipedia as saying the Desprez authorship is questionable for that mass.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    That's interesting. As to the 'raised penultimates', I'd posit based on the music they are generally wrong. A D#? Come on. The G# later seems unlikely to me, though possible.

  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Making the leading tone a half step was common practice in his time:
    It is only for later generations who wish to perform this early music properly that problems arise because of unwritten or inconsistently notated chromatic alterations.
    K Marie Stolba, The Development Of Western Music , p. 124
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    These are exactly what I need for my little choir to start polyphony.
    Thank you and keep 'em comin'
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    There are two Josquin Missas "Ad Fugam" - one of which is also known as Missa Sine Nomine, the other of which is of somewhat questionable origin. They are both in the Missarum, Book 3, which is linked to (above) at IMSLP. The "Sine Nomine" mass of that book also appears in the collection Liber quindecim missarum (Antico, Andrea) as "Ad Fugam".

    I've checked the Benedictus of both of these masses, and it appears to me that Heath's "The Bread That I Will Give" must come from a different source than these two masses. I would very much like to know the source that gives rise to Heath's adaptation. I've checked several other Josquin masses and haven't found it yet. In the meantime, I've been deciphering the canon structures for the Benedictus (and other portions) of the "Sine Nomine" mass.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I may be using this... very nice.
  • Heath
    Posts: 966
    Friends, many moons ago in my undergrad days, I walked out of the music library and a collection of music had been piled outside the door with a sign saying, "free." I picked up a book called "Examples of Gregorian Chant and Sacred Music of the 16th-century", a compilation by Gustave Fredric Soderlund and Samuel H. Scott from North Texas University. Seems to have been compiled in 1970 and used for a class on 16th-century counterpoint.

    Anyway, I've grabbed all my adaptations from this book; ficta is marked in some pieces, but not others (the typesetting is not consistent; may be a collection of photocopies from different sources). I've obviously messed with texts and rhythms, but I have not omitted any notes or modified the accidentals that have been set forth in this book.

    "A D#? Come on."

    The key that I found it in (original?) was with one flat, and so, it was a C# in the book.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    Wow.

    I have the Third Edition (1946) of Gustave Fredric Soderland's "Examples of Gregorian Chant and Works by Orlandus Lassus, Giovanni Pierluigi Palestrina, and Marc Antonio Ingegneri" described as being "for use in Classes of Counterpoint" which I bought probably half a century ago (or more). The work was originally published in 1937 then revised nd enlarged in 1941 & 1946. It proved an invaluable resource for me long before the age of digital facsimilies being available over the internet. Soderland was on the faculty of the Theory Department at the Eastman School of Music at the University of Rochesters.

    I'm guessing that the book by Soderland and Scott which Heath mentions is a successor to the original work by Soderland.

    Unfortunately, the book which I have contains no works at all by Josquin, so I am still at a loss to track down the source or a reference to the "Ad fugam" setting of the Benedictus which Heath has arranged.

    Any help on this would be most welcome. A scan of the relevant work from Soderland & Scott would be ideal.

    Finally, the Benedictus of the "Missa Sine Nomine" of the Missarum Book 3 is a two part proportional canon at the fifth - soprano at twice the speed of the alto, which is pitched a fifth below the soprano, and hence sings only half the tune. The Benedictus of the "Missa Ad Fugam" of the same book is through-composed for three voices (soprano, alto, bass).
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Article mentioning sources of the Missa.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=OW0ktdIxMoIC&lpg=PA125&ots=xyrMRMrEgw&dq=josquin%20desprez%20manuscrpt%20missa%20ad%20fugam&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q=josquin%20desprez%20manuscrpt%20missa%20ad%20fugam&f=false

    A Missa ad Fugam by Marbriano de Orto is apparently sometimes wrongly attributed to Josquin dP.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    Thanks, Continuous bass ... but I already have facsimiles of the two Josquin masses that have been called "Ad fugam" (one of which is a.k.a. "Sine nomine"). The "Sine nomine" is the one referred to in the article you gave a link to. The doubtful Josquin "Ad fugam" mass appears in Petrucci along with the one called "Sine nomine" in the same work. I don't know if the de Orto "Ad fugam" setting is either of these settings from Petrucci.
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