Incidental piano music during OF Eucharistic Prayer/Elevation
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Has anyone else come across this phenomenon? With one parish musician, it's horror vacui like SHE CAN'T HELP IT! I know it annoys her pastor, too, but she gets away with it. Elsewhere you have to be able to hear a pin drop...no bells ringing either. We've discussed bells recently on the forum, and wanted to raise this as another controversial aspect of church music... maybe it's been discussed in the past.

    Aside: This is not to scandalize the situation, but in the spirit of knowing how to deal with the differences in opinion (if it's even a matter of opinion, IDK). The kicker is: I've been asked to fire musicians in the past. Once I even told a violinist to put it back in the case and sing in the pews (The sound was so bad!!), which I was actually proud of myself for only making him huff at me once before complying...and I was being kind. Well, at least the pastor warned me some people would try to latch on who weren't very gifted.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Assuming you are talking about the ordinary form, it's not a matter of opinion. All instruments are to be silent from the end of the sanctus until the mystery of faith, and again until the amen. End of story.

    edit: since you mention altar bells, those are a specific exception given in the missal, and are allowed at the appropriate times.
    Thanked by 2Continuousbass M. Jackson Osborn
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    There ought to be silence. No question.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    GIRM:
    32. The nature of the “presidential” parts requires that they be spoken in a loud and clear voice and that everyone listen to them attentively. Therefore, while the Priest is pronouncing them, there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent.
    Thanked by 2Continuousbass CHGiffen
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Yes it's all OF masses. That girm quote sounds serious, might have to call a general meeting in town where I work. The boss is very conservative, but also hesitant to make people feel bad on the spot- we love him dearly though.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Calling a meeting would put him on the spot. Maybe you can give it to him separately and let him decide how to phase out or cut off the piano improvisations.

  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    This was a relatively common phenomenon in Life Teen parishes - and I know it was done regularly by the Life Teen home-base parish. However after some clarifications from Rome (Redemptionis Sacramentum perhaps?), they stopped the practice. However some folks didn't get the memo.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    "should be silent"

    THEY DIDN'T SAY "MUST BE" SO ITS OK IF WE DO IT OUR WAY KTHX
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka Ben
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    The player should focus on the prayer more than the keys IMHO. I'll have to look up this Redemptionis doc.
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    [53.] While the Priest proclaims the Eucharistic Prayer “there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent”,[132] except for the people’s acclamations that have been duly approved, as described below.

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

    True it does say should instead of shall...I wonder what the other languages have?

    [53.] Dum Sacerdos celebrans Precem eucharisticam «profert aliae orationes vel cantus non habeantur, atque organum vel alia instrumenta musica sileant»,[132] nisi pro acclamationibus populi rite approbatis de quibus infra.

    latin. Google translates exactly the same from the Latin, btw.


    53. Während der zelebrierende Priester das eucharistische Hochgebet spricht, «soll gleichzeitig nichts anderes gebetet oder gesungen werden; auch Orgel und andere Musikinstrumente sollen schweigen»,[132] außer zu den pflichtgemäß approbierten Akklamationen des Volkes, über die weiter unten gesprochen wird.

    German. "Sollen" seems closer to "must", must be silent.

  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    http://www.news.va/en/news/regina-caeli-full-text

    I feel properly encouraged to lay it out with the pastor, I'm positive he will be at least flustered with my comments. That's gotta be a tough job.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    The Eucharistic Prayer in the OF does not have a soundtrack.
    Thanked by 2Continuousbass G
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I visited a parish once where the organ was played throughout the Eucharistic Prayer. It sounded like a silent movie accompaniment. I about half way expected to see Snidely Whiplash twirling his mustache over by the altar.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl G
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Hopefully during the elevation there was no diminished seventh chord swell. image
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Am I remembering correctly than someone on this forum had a pastor, (from EF order,) who insisted on an "elevation" being played during the, um... elevation?

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Btw, if the desire is for music during the Eucharistic prayer . . .Father can *chant* the Eucharistic prayer (and the keyboardist can provide incipits as needed, but not supporting/sustained accompaniment).
    Thanked by 2Continuousbass Gavin
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,191
    The practice in France up until VII was the "organ" mass. The organ played during the whole mass and certainly during the EP. Then there are all those beautiful "elevations" written by a whole hosts of French composers. Tournemire's l'Orgue Mystique even has a piece written for this time (the third mvmt. of the suites.)

  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    There's a parish around here that still plays the elevation - however it takes place DURING THE ELEVATION when no part of the Eucharistic Prayer is being spoken.

    The mass isn't broadway and doesn't need soft music playing underneath dialogue.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Sorry, ContinuousBass, but sollen is not that close to "must" - rather, its meaning is "should":

    sollen (irregular, third-person singular simple present soll, past tense sollte, past participle sollen, auxiliary haben)

    (auxiliary) should; to be obligated (to do something); ought; shall

    Ich soll das machen. — “I should do that.”
    Ich sollte das nicht tun. — “I should not do it.”

    (auxiliary) to be recommended (to do something); to be asked (to do something)
    (auxiliary) to be intended (to do something); to be meant (to be something)
    (auxiliary) to be said (to do something); reportedly; they say that; I hear that; so they say; rumor has it; supposedly.

    Es soll da viele Leute geben. — “They say that there are many people there.”

    (auxiliary, in a subordinate clause in the simple past tense) would; indicates that the subordinate clause indicates something that would happen in the past but after the time frame of the main clause
    (auxiliary, in a subordinate clause in the subjunctive) should; indicates that the subordinate clause indicates a hypothetical and unlikely condition for the main clause.

    Müssen expresses absolute necessity to do something, whereas sollen expresses less of a requirement.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Tell the piano player that if he'd like to play over the EP, he's free to go direct an EF :D
    Thanked by 2JulieColl Gavin
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Here's another take on the question.

    1) Pianos are (apparently) now permitted in liturgical settings.
    2) Organs and pianos are different instruments.
    3) Piano interludes often sound like Jazz or bar-ready "tickling the ivories". Common sense says that such sounds have absolutely no place at Mass.

  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    1. Yes
    2. Right
    3. Agree
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,191
    And be sure to tell that to 90% of the parishes in this country who seem to think that pianos are acceptable. I do not disagree but so many I come into contact with these days use the piano because it is easier to buy, easier to maintain and finding a player. Many parishes in France used harmoniums for the same purpose.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Well it's not like the piano is actually illicit.

    I use the organ 100% at mass in my parish. But we do have a piano (mostly for concerts) and I have on some rare occasions played it during mass (when a soloist is to sing Panis Angelicus or Ave Maria, for example.)
    Thanked by 1Gavin
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