Hymns for congregation and SATB
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Does anybody know any hymn arrangements that are for the above forces? Has anybody had success with them? I've also thought about arranging some that we do frequently at our parish, but if you guys haven't had good experiences with them I might not try it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    ClergetKubisz

    I am not clear on your requirements. Are you saying you want the SATB to be completely different contrapuntal parts that do not include the melody (congregation)?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Yes, francis, that is what I'm searching for. My thought is that since many of us have cantors and choirs at the same time (for at least one Mass) it would be beneficial to have such arrangements so that the cantor would sing the congregation part and the choir would sing the SATB parts. If I was arranging them, I would add an organ accompaniment as well, but not really required. I kinda had the idea when I was editing the SAB version of the Mass that the DM at our church composed.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    It seems that the Sopranos would normally have the melody, except possibly for a Soprano descant. And for a descant, the rest of the choir often sings just the melody to help reinforce the congregational singing (and also, the harmonization for the descanted stanza is rather different from that of the other stanzas).

    There are also "hymn-anthems" with some of the singing by the choir alone and with some stanzas by congregation and choir. I'm not sure of the role of a cantor in all of this, except to be a designated person to sing the melody along with the (non-descant) Sopranos.

    Perhaps you could compare your thoughts with the enclosed hymn-anthem of mine, "Sing, O Sing This Blessed Morn" set to my own hymn tune "McShane" (77. 77. 77). It's also available here at CPDL, where one can find just the hymn and also a congregational insert for the hymn-anthem setting.
    Sing O Sing.pdf
    177K
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Nice piece CHG:

    Have you published your music? You have a great amount of good stuff.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Charles, this is a breathtaking hymn tune and arrangement! I thought nothing could top singing Willcocks' arrangement of Hark the Herald Angels sing as a Christmas Day recessional, but this is just as awesome.

    As for Clerget's question, I think it is a really splendid effect in Lasst un Erfruen where the "O praise Him" and the "Alleluias" break out in four-part harmony while the rest is in unison, and of course, on special occasions, the last verse should always include a descant, IMHO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc6QkhChlEg

    I recently purchased the Oxford Book of Descants, and they are are just superb, many of them by David Willcocks.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Charles, I've been studying Sing, O Sing, this blessed morn this morning and marveling at the craftsmanship and how eminently "singable" it is.

    Just a question, though. As you say in the notes, the first and fourth verses are not antecedents but variational artifacts of the original tune. Would you mind explaining further?

    I did notice how verse 1 is a more basic form of verse 2 and that verse 4 changes tempo slightly which creates a very interesting effect, but I'm sure I'm missing other details.

    Also, on verse 3 and 5 which have descants, does the choir sing unison with the congregation? That would be my guess, even though you've created such a gorgeous four-voice arrangement at the end.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    There is a lovely arrangement of Lasst uns (Ye watchers and ye holy ones) by George Oldroyd in the (original) Oxford Easy Anthem Book.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Julie, you're not missing much. I wrote the original tune and harmonization, as found in stanza 2, for Edward James ("Jimmy") McShane (mathematician, member of the National Academy of Sciences, colleague for 25 years, avid amateur musician and friend) when he turned 85. When I had finished it and made a good enough copy (by hand), I gave it to his son-in-law (also a mathematician, colleague, fellow oboist and friend) to give to Jimmy and was told that Jimmy was near death. I don't think Jimmy ever heard the tune nor got a chance to hear it before he died.

    Not long after that, I added the descant of stanza 4. I also had used the harmonization of the final verse when I would play the piece for friends or myself. A few years later, when I had settled on the "Sing, O sing this blessed morn" text, I conceived of the hymn-anthem arrangement, modifying the descant of the 4th stanza to fit. It was at that time that the simpler 1st stanza setting occurred to me and, from that exercise, the duple meter setting of the 3rd stanza. It seemed to me at the time that these variations somehow added something to the character of the setting, even though the 1st and 3rd stanza settings were simpler and seemed "older" than the original and might need some explanation.

    Just to round out the picture, about a year ago, I posted here in this thread the duple meter setting of McShane together with a more subdued variant of the duple tune. Thus the tune "McShane Duple" now has a life of its own.

    As for singing the SATB harmonization along with the descant(s), I have no problems with it at all, at least if the melody of the tune carries well enough ... for instance, because the congregation knows the tune well or the organist plays it in such a manner that the melody is clear (e.g. by doubling the melody in pedal). It seems to me that deciding between singing the SATB harmonization or singing the melody when there is a descant is a decision that should be made on a case by case basis. I have never been happy when a choir director informs the choir that it is the policy always to sing the melody when there is a descant.

  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    CHG, this is a wonderful piece. How long did it take you to compose it?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Charles, what a wonderful story behind this hymn. Thanks so much for sharing it and the music. I can easily imagine it will be one of the great classics someday. I really love the way each verse is a slightly different variation which seems to be in the English tradition. There are several arrangements in the Carols for Choirs series which are like this, and it's quite marvelous how the expectation builds with each change-up, as it were.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    kentsb, thank you for your very kind words. It is a long time since I first composed it (in 1989), but my recollection is that the original tune (as given in stanza 2) was composed in about one day, probably with a couple of tweaks over the next day or two.

    JulieColl, thank you for your very kind words, too.

    Also, thanks to francis.

    I am truly flattered by the reception this hymn has garnered.
    Thanked by 2kenstb JulieColl