Gloria/Credo Celebrant Intonations
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    EF types (and those who have the celebrant intone the gloria/credo in the OF):

    I'm sure you've all dealt with priests who only intone using Gloria VIII and Credo III because of their lack of musicianship or whatever reason. How do you handle it if you're not using chant ordinaries other than the ones he intones?

    Do you use whatever he intones and run with it, or do you simply begin chanting whichever one you planned, regardless of what he intones? How do you handle this?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Our priest only intones the Gloria at Holy Thursday and Easter Vigil. That is followed by tower bells and altar bells throughout the Gloria and trumpet fanfares then full organ before the Gloria actually begins. By the time we get to the congregational part the congregation no longer remembers which Gloria the priest intoned. We haven't sung the Creed since the late sixties that I know of.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Do you use whatever he intones and run with it, or do you simply begin chanting whichever one you planned, regardless of what he intones? ?


    Yes, this.

    We are an OF parish, though we have had some EF Masses. I don't know if this is "proper" but sometimes the tenors will intone. We do this with one priest in particular who doesn't enjoy singing.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    We currently use six different Gregorian ordinaries (I,VIII, IX,XI,XVII,XVIII, Credo III, and Dismissal II).
    The pastor asked for little laminated cards about the size of a business card that had intonations for the Gloria on one side and Dismissal on the reverse. The priests in our parish (FSSP) are trained in seminary and remember or can learn most of them, though sometimes a priest or deacon will have difficulty...

    Before every sung mass I send a singer (often a singer-server) to check in with the sacristy and let them know which Gloria and Dismissal will be sung.

    The Credo is always III, at the request of the pastor. Though I'm very tired of it after five years of Sundays, I have to admit the people seem to like to sing it.

    The slight issue for us is what to do with a botched Gloria or Dismissal intonation. This happens less and less often, but when it does the organist softly plays the first several notes for the choir, or I've had to quickly hum a stabilizing interval or first few notes before anyone sings (less preferred).
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    Depending on the celebrant, the organist plays the first few notes of the intonation or the entire intonation. If the intonation is off (happens from time to time) or simply different (very rare), the organist lightly plays the starting note to cue the choir for what was planned. I make a point of contacting the celebrant some days prior if there is reason to believe the intonations might be an issue.

    Although I have never encountered this, if the celebrant is unwilling/unable to intone anything except Mass 8 Gloria and Credo 3, I would plan in advance to have the choir sing Credo 3 and either the Gloria from Mass 8 or another that fits modally with the intonation.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    We usually have priests that can intone more than VIII and III, some are happy to intone any Ordinary with a few minutes notice. For the occasions when when there is a problem we will choose an intonation that the priest knows that will fit with the ordinary we want to sing, our cantors are used to re-pitching...
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    It happened a few times while I was at the Pontifical North American College in Rome. The celebrant was only able (or willing) to intone Gloria VIII and/or Credo III. It was known beforehand that he was going to do this so the choir was prepared to "ignore" the intonation and just start with the chosen Gloria/Credo.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Angelus Press sells laminated intonation cards for the celebrant which we gave to our pastor, but we always go to the sacristy before Mass and check with him if there's something new, and I'll email him an mp3 from Schola Bellarmina of the new part beforehand.

    The cards contain these intonations: Gloria: I-XV & M.R.D.; Credo: I-V & M.R.D.; and Ite, missa est: I-XVIII & M.R.D. It's too bad they aren't like those electronic birthday cards where you can push a button and hear the tune. That would be most useful.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    More details: our typical celebrant can sing anything I give him, but one coming up next week isn't too musical at all. Luckily that the intonation of Gloria VIII fits nicely into the beginning of Gloria I.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Play the whole intonation. At first our rector just wanted one note, but it's worth giving the whole thing.

    Or do Mass XII and see if you priest can sing up an down a fifth! :)
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Bruce, that's what I always do: I give the celebrant the whole intonation, even if I know he can handle it fine, that way I know it's in a good range for my singers.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    One idea has helped several times.

    About a week in advance I make a recording of a young man from the choir singing the intonation 3-5 times. It's no longer than 30 seconds long, and the bishop, deacon or priest can listen at his leisure and basically memorize it. I recommend they listen several times a day, and sing along when they are comfortable.

    It is still pre-intoned by the organist during mass.

    The recording probably wouldn't work for all clerics, but it has worked with some who are known to be singing challenged.

    Funny story- we did this with the Mass XI Gloria recently. The organist hesitated for just a second, as we were in a different church and couldn't exactly see well. To our surprise, the celebrant calmly and clearly intoned it anyway, in the precise "key" we needed to begin the polyphonic Gloria.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Ben francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    MCW

    I used to do this for our deacon. mp3 delivered via email. It's a great use of our modern inventions of electricity and digitization.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    We use Gloria VIII (always accompanied) during the Easter and Christmas seasons, and Solemnities. The pastor (when he intones - usually only on Easter and Christmas day - he doesn't like to sing) only uses a (very, very, very) simplified version of the intonation for Mass IV in Q-sharp major; I then play something to get into the right key - either just repeat the Gregorian intonation or improvise a short fantasy/intonazione.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I had this problem this weekend when filling in at an EF parish. Before the dismissal one of the singers leaned over to tell me that the priest would sing "Ite missa est" to the Orbis factor melody and that we should respond with Deo gratias from Mass I. Being a guest—and having only a matter of seconds to make a decision—I went along with it and gave the choir their proper starting pitch. It was an absolute mess! In the future, if the priest does not sing the intonation we expect, we will respond with whatever he does sing.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Before the dismissal one of the singers leaned over to tell me that the priest would sing "Ite missa est" to the Orbis factor melody and that we should respond with Deo gratias from Mass I.


    What the heck?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I make it very clear to clergy that I do not shoot from the hip.

    REVISION.... I should probably quantify this statement... This is inconsiderate of the music program, disrespectful to the director, choir and cantors and has no concept what it takes to plan, rehearse and perform music fitting for the liturgy.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Incantu, that's what I call a curveball! In theory that should work, as I hear the two in my head back to back. Still, a good congregation wouldn't know to go along with it. Stuff like that takes a few months off my life.
    Yours is a story for schola memoirs, to be sure.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    The one that gets me is the visiting priest who wants to thank the academy, his accountant, and God knows who else after the dismissal. I tell them I can hear "thanks be to God" from the congregation half a block away in the loft, much better than I can hear a talking priest. If they have anything to say, do it before the dismissal since the hymn will start when I hear, "thanks be to God."
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