to Cant or not to Cant that is the question!
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I have scheduled the cantor for confirmation with the Bishop.
    We have rehearsed and are as ready as we will be.
    One of the moms of the children, also a cantor, has been putting up a stink that I did not choose her to cant.

    A little back ground; I have always felt that I need to choose the best for the Lord, the best music, the best singers, the best instrumentalists, the best of myself.
    The cantor I have chosen is the best we have available at for this event.
    The mom is ok but does not posses the strength or tonal character to be a "front man". Plus when she gets nervous her voice quivers and she turns a very nice shade of pink.

    I can either let her do it just to be nice, or stick to my guns and offer the best lamb of the flock for the sacrifice.

    Opinions please
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I say stick to your guns.

    And why in the world would she want to be the cantor anyway, when her child is getting confirmed? Shouldn't she be with her family?

    Point that out to her in a way that's not really asking those questions, but stating them. "No, I wouldn't make you do that, and I think you'd regret it. Be with your family."

    You might add that this isn't about who gets "face time" up there anyway. What are we really here for?
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Your obligation is to present the very best that you can for the spiritual benefit of the parish. You must do this in season, out of season, when convenient or inconvenient. Make the best musical decision regardless of personal feelings. If you compromise your standards, you will not be doing what is best for the worshipping community.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    You might add that this isn't about who gets "face time" up there anyway. What are we really here for?


    Precisely. I would also surmise that this is not a person who usually complains about this sort of thing, such as on a normal Sunday. However, my suspicion is along the lines of what PGA said: she wants to do this because her family will be there and she wants to show off.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I should say - I CAN sort of be sympathetic to this. Sort of.

    When my wife's family had a mass intention for her deceased grandfather, the whole extended family was coming to mass. My wife is a capable cantor and, although not lately so much, at the time was one of our regular cantors. She wanted to sing that mass, and letting her do so was just a matter of shuffling someone else to another week. For the other person, it made no difference; to my wife and her family, it really made it "extra special." So I let her do it. She didn't want to show off, just to feel somehow more involved with this liturgy for the intention of her grandfather.

    But - with all that said, there's a few differences. First of all, as I said, she is competent, of equal competence to the other possibilities. Second of all, this wasn't a "special" mass; it was a Sunday mass on a summer Sunday. Not a confirmation mass or something of the like.

    This woman should be with her family. And you should insist on it.

    When my first son was baptized (not at our parish, but the cathedral) I asked for and received permission to play the organ prelude before the mass, and I did so. But that's all I wanted to do. For the mass itself and the baptism, I wanted to be with my family and my young son being baptized, not in the loft or behind the chancel screen worrying about mass music.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Interesting. I don't have an opinion, but I was thinking of requesting my choir to sing at my sons confirmation. I believe this would be the "best" music our church could offer, yet, I will be busy. Otherwise it will be just a cantor, no choir... I'll ask my pastor about it and try to refrain from having my feelings hurt. I understand her position though. I'd have been hurt too.
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  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Let her do it.

    Did she ask to sing? If she did and you turned her down, I think that was a jerky move. If she never asked, it's certainly understandable not to choose her. You said yourself that she's not bad, so why not let her sing, if you would any other Sunday?

    The argument made, that she would rather be with her family, is a fair one. Point out your concern that she may be happier to be with them.

    She isn't trying to show off or steal the spotlight from Our Lord. She just wants to be a part of a special moment in her son's life. If she's a little bit less than your best cantor, but still capable, just let her.
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  • You should not have been put in this position. If you cave in, you will rue the day that you set a precedent for entitlement.
    The conscientious rationale for the decision you have already made is most thoughtful and appropriate.
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  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Tonight was the night for the confirmation. Everything went well except for a minor issue with the bishops mic.
    There were definitely some bad feelings but the evening was good.
    I did stick with my decision. The pastor also had my back.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Thank you for sharing this.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Gavin - so, what do you say to the person you've already scheduled and rehearsed?

    How can we know what this "mom's" motivations were?

    What you would say to the person you were pulling so that you could acquiesce to the demands of this "mom", and how would you ever have any credibility or authority going forward if you didn't calmly but firmly stick to your original decision?

    Would pulling the cantor that was already scheduled and rehearsed in favor of this other person be an act of "charity"? What kind of life lesson would you be teaching her (or indeed her child) if you made the change simply because she complained?

    Just my two cents.

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  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I typically assume people here have the ounce of common sense to run their programs responsibly and amicably. I guess this is my root error. So I'll go point-by-point on some of these ridiculous objections:

    - First off, I didn't realize DonR's confirmation was scheduled for a few hours after he posted. This is something that should have been dealt with MUCH sooner. He says the mother "HAS BEEN putting up a stink", meaning this is something he did know sooner than today. As I said above, if the objection was raised at a suitable time, it would have been best to acquiesce to it. If not, it's entirely fair to say "I am concerned about you having the time, with everything you must be doing, to prepare this on such short notice. Do you feel this is something you can tackle?" If you don't want to put the decision in their hands, simply say the first sentence only.

    - As to the other cantor, this is something that should have been dealt with shortly after the schedule was announced. If he has learned all of his music and everything is set, then say "I'd love to have you, but so-and-so has already diligently prepared; as a fellow cantor I'm sure you know how much goes into preparing for your role. I wish you could have let me know about this sooner, so I could have scheduled you!" (Of course... maybe she did inform DonR with enough time - that's what's in contention here to me)

    - As to the quality, I have to ask whether the cantor is chanting the verse in a Gregorian gradual? Or is he just leading a "singalong" of hymns while flapping his arms? I would be concerned to have my best cantor for the former, for the latter I'd just be embarrassed to let it happen no matter who's doing it. There's the psalm and alleluia verse - maybe 12 measures to learn? I tend to appoint my best for festal occasions, but the fact that this woman already cantors on Sunday tells me that she's presumably skilled enough to learn a psalm and verse. I don't invest as heavily in a psalm as I do in an anthem or voluntary.

    A good objection to my proposed course of action was made by my esteemed colleagues Jackson and David, namely that this would represent a threat to authority. I guess I am duly reminded of the words of Our Lord, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them. But you are to make their displays of power seem libertarian compared to your ruthlessness." Or did He say that?

    I do believe that a choirmaster must be a benevolent dictator. That's a delicate balance though, not just a strong arm all the time. I cave on some less-important things so that I can hold my line on others. And I always express my desire to be ABLE to do what someone else wants - especially when I think it's a bad idea. As I said above, the best thing for DonR to have said would have been "I wish you would have brought this to me sooner so I could have scheduled you!"

    And yet Our Lord speaks so much of servant leadership. Are we right to clamor over power and exercise political intrigue and bullying to get it? I think that's a question for each of our own conscience, and one I ask myself frequently. Charity was mentioned - something we like to ignore here. Let's just keep ignoring it, what does charity have to do with The Church?

    Why do I get so agitated about this? I had many mentors in my early days, old revered experienced church musicians who instilled in me the values I still work by. I remember well how one of them said to me often, "Talent and ability are worthless in this field. What will determine the success of your career is your people skills. You must be the best organist you can be, but if you go around being a jerk to everyone to get your way, you will have a short and disastrous career." So even while I have struggled to improve my skills in playing and conducting, I always try to improve my skills in dealing with the personalities I interact with every week. And it pays off.

    I get agitated when I see an opportunity to do a decent thing for another human being reduced to how 12 measures is going to sound.

    TL;DR: This is why I don't comment here as frequently anymore.
    Thanked by 2barreltone canadash
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    So, what happens when people take advantage of your generosity?
  • Sometimes, both the pastoral and musical concerns can be addressed in situations like this by compromising a bit.

    If the music selection choices for the Confirmation included several pieces that involved a cantor (e.g., in addition to the Responsorial Psalm and Gospel Acclamation, during the anointing of the candidates, a communion song if Mass was celebrated) perhaps the mother-cantor could have been invited to just sing on one of the selections, leaving the remainder to the cantor that was originally scheduled.

    Since we don't know all of the details in this situation, that may or may not have been feasible. And since the ceremony has already taken place, this is a moot point in this particular case. But it might be helpful in the future.

    At my parish, we actively seek liturgical ministers for Confirmation who are related to the candidates. For example, if any of the candidates' family members are our parish lectors, altar servers, or Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, we ask them first. With cantors, we generally use several during the ceremony, since there are usually a number of pieces programmed for the ceremony that involve a cantor.

    I emphasize, however, that we do this only for liturgical ministers who are members of our parish, and not relatives who may minister in other parishes.

    Just some thoughts for what they're worth.
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  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Gavin I understand your points. I should have mentioned in my first post that we had rehearsed all the music and this person approached me Two days before the confirmation requesting she do it. Neither myself or the accompniast had enough time to rehearse with her.
    I explained all this to her and said that I wished she had come to me sooner.
    She raised a very large stink about it to the pastor, the other priests, the moderator, the other cantor and other folks.
    That just made me a little angry, but I still talked to her calmly and said I'm sorry we are already set.
    She made such a stink about it that I almost just gave her her way just to stop the complaining when I decided to consult my peers here on this forum.
    Keep in mind all of this happening in days.

    I talked to the pastor and he said he would not make a change.

    I really would have given her the role if she would have come to me earlier even though she is not as good a singer as the one I chose.

    I'm glad I made the decision I did, but I am sad that she has taken it so hard.

    Thanks all for your feedback.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    It is unfortunate to see such emotion and possibly anger expressed over what is essentially a scheduling issue. In my experience, the rotation of cantors is set far in advance of any liturgy. As a result, there is time to make adjustments, hopefully before the cantors have rehearsed. It isn't unkind or "ruthless" to refuse to alter a program at the last minute if all of the cantors were aware of the schedule ahead of time.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    It's also a great rationale for the limited use of "cantors" as leaders of song. Choral ensembles of any stripe are always preferable, IMOYMMVEOS.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    melo, this simply is not fluent... you should change your name to melocryptic.

    IMOYMMVEOS
    Thanked by 2chonak CHGiffen
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Donr, you sound very reasonable to me. In this case I would have to agree with you. Melo, we've begun doing just this this year. It works well.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Tales from the MeloCryptic! I like it.
    In my opinion, your mileage may vary, especially on Sundays.
    And it kinda looks Greco-Roman to boot!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    And yet Our Lord speaks so much of servant leadership. Are we right to clamor over power and exercise political intrigue and bullying to get it?


    I think that power is overestimated. Two Sundays ago, I had 3 choir members in the loft to begin the opening hymn. The full choir was present 10 minutes later. Yes, the majority came in late with one muttering something about having to "see to her dog." I did remind them of the time the mass starts, and that if they don't leave home in time to get to church, they will be late.

    Having been put in the position of someone approaching and wanting to sing for grandma's memorial mass at the last minute, I do understand. But it is rare that I can change my plans and inconvenience others on short notice to please relatives.

    Back to that supposed power we directors have. I have concluded that the paper towel monitors in hell have more real authority. So much for all that! LOL.
    Thanked by 2Gavin canadash
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "I should have mentioned in my first post that we had rehearsed all the music and this person approached me Two days before the confirmation requesting she do it."

    Sounds like you handled it right, in that case!!

    I just want to make clear that, to my thinking, the problem is the timing of all this more than the issue of who's doing it.

    That's one of the first things I say to choirs: "I plan all this WELL in advance, so if you have ANY requests whatsoever, the rehearsal before Sunday is NOT the time to ask me!"
    Thanked by 2CharlesW canadash
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    And it kinda looks Greco-Roman to boot!


    IMOYMMϴEΩ∑
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