Pronunciation of "g" + vowel in Latin
  • Geremia
    Posts: 269
    How is "g" + vowel pronounced in Latin? In particular, how is "gu" pronounced?

    lingo = lin+joe or lin+go?
    regum = re+goom or re+djum?
    gentes = djen+tes or ghen+tes?
    regia = re-ghee-a or re-dji-a?
    gallus = dja+lus or gha-lus?

    thanks
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    "g" before "a", "o", and "u" is hard, as in the English "go".
    The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) symbol is [g].

    "g" before "e" and "i" is soft, as in the English "gem".
    In IPA: [ʤ]

    Thanked by 3Choirparts BruceL Geremia
  • ChoirpartsChoirparts
    Posts: 147
    From "The Correct Pronunciation of Latin" by Rev Michael De Angelis (St Gregory Guild 1937)


    G like C has two sounds: (a) soft like g in general, gender, or (b) hard like g in
    get, go, garden, govern, etc.
    It is soft before e, i, oe, ae and y.
    Examples
    Genus—JEH-noos (j, in these examples is given the usual English pronunciation)
    : genitori—jeh-nee-TAW-ree; unigenite—oo-nee-JEH-nee-teh; regina—reh-
    JEE-nah; intingit—een-TEEN-jeet.

    It is hard in every other case except when followed by n. (See GN.)
    Examples
    Gladius—GLAH-dee-oos; gloria—GLAW-ree-ah; sanguis—SAHN-gooees; ego —EH-gaw; plaga—PLAH-gah; ergo—EHR-gaw; Gallia—GAHL-lee-ah.
  • henrik.hank
    Posts: 103
    In German speaking countries the G is always G as in go.
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  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Sanguis, pinguis, and lingua are generally pronounced as disyllabic, with the gu pronounced essentially as a voiced qu. Every once in a while, a poetic text may require such words to be trisyllabic with the u made into a vowel sound. Similarly, suavis can have 2 or 3 syllables swavis or su-a-vis. This flexibility is found in both classical and ecclesiastical Latin.
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  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Btw, reguum is not a Latin word.
  • Chris AllenChris Allen
    Posts: 150
    Gah, jeh, jee, goh, goo.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Oh, and gn between vowel sound us pronounced -ny- in ecclesiastical Latin in most of western Europe. What it sounded like in classical Latin is less clear.
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  • ChoirpartsChoirparts
    Posts: 147
    continued: from book by Rev Michael De Angelis (St Gregory Guild 1937)

    GN
    The English equivalent to the sound of the Latin gn is found in the combination
    of ny with the vowels (as in cafiyon). The last syllable of the word Dominion
    gives a fairly accurate impression of the sound. However, when "Gn" occurs at
    the beginning of a word it is given the natural English sound.
    Examples
    Agnus—AH-nyoos (AH-neeyoos) ; igne—EE-neeyeh (Note—the last syllable is
    quickly amalgamated in one sound); magnam—MAH-neeyahm; dignum—DEEneeyoom;
    magnificat—mah-NEEYEE-fee-caht; Gnaeus—GUHNEH-oos.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    I wish we could all move away from using "ee" and "oh" and similar expressions as a "phonetic" representation of Latin vowels. I suspect that these quasi-Englishy representations lead beginners to import the diphthongs and spread vowels of American speech into Latin. Now that we have IPA, why not use it?
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    Now that we have IPA, why not use it?

    bɪkɒz most əv əs hæv ə pɑrtɪkjələrli dɪfəkəlt tajm rɛdɪŋ ænd əndərstændɪŋ ɪt, lɛt əlon æktʃəwəli prənawnsɪŋ ɪt kərɛktli.

    ɪz əmɛrəkən fənɛtɪk ælfəbɛt rɛndərɪŋ əv səč pronənsiešən ɪšuz ɛni bɛtər?

    I doubt it.
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  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Completely OT, I have recently fallen in love with George Thill, and I noticed in singing the Bizet warhorse, he pronounced it "agh-noos," so I'm assuming the French, at least in the '20s and '30s, used that pronunciation?
    Many Germans still do, right?

    Oh. And I just realized something else - every choir in which I've ever sung, even if we were meticulous about everything else, sang "magnificat" with a hard "g."
    My bad, my most grievous bad...

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • ChoirpartsChoirparts
    Posts: 147
    With Latin, as in English ... YMMV.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,087
    ETD

    (Experientia tuam differat)
    Thanked by 3gregp chonak barreltone
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Oh. And I just realized something else - every choir in which I've ever sung, even if we were meticulous about everything else, sang "magnificat" with a hard "g."

    @G, I had the same thought yesterday. I'm wondering if it's because of the many "magnus/a/um" words we have in English: the Magna Carta, magnifying glass, a magnum of pinot noir, to list a few.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,087
    And Magnificat is used in English as a noun, and pronounced in English with a hard G.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    I suspect that we sing Latin in English speaking countries as we do, because we are not native speakers of Latin. They all died out centuries ago. The French and Germans put their own stamp on Latin, as does nearly everyone else.
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  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I think it is partly to avoid confusion with magnus and manus.

    I always emphasise the "gn" in Agnus Dei. Don't want people to think that we're singing "anus"
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,189
    At least you don't hear it pronounced "Agnes Dee-eye" ... or do you?
  • stbenedict
    Posts: 4
    There are 3 (at least) accepted pronunciations of latin:
    (a) The restored classical pronunciation (RCP) taught in classes studying the classical authors (if you know a little Greek, you will know why AE in RCP is pronounced as in "aisle"; V is a semi vowel sounding rather like W to us: hence "hi" would sound, in RCP latin in translation, like SALWE. Churchill raised a laugh in the House of
    Commons when he said he would be damned rather than quote Caesar's famously worded banner as weni, widi, winky; C is always hard as in cacophony, never as in :
    "nice"; there is only one word -- omitting names -- in latin beginning with K and that is Kalends, the first day of a month. See W.Sydney Allen, Vox Latina,Cambridge (UK!); (b) German pronunciation (cp. gynasium which comes out as goomnatsium ) but which is fast falling from use; and (c) finally, the pronunciation of ecclesiastical latin. Many would be surprised to learn that this pronunciation is comparatively recent. It is the Italian pronunciation of latin towards the latter half of the nineteenth century. If you were to have access to the Liber Usualis, you will find the rules there, page xxxviij. The rules date back to Pope St Pius X in a letter to the archbishop of Paris. (Cfr. Vatican Documents web site). Now we get to the point,at last!-- a quote from the LiberUsualis"G before :a, ae, oe, i and y (magi, genitor, regina) is soft; otherwise hard."
    A p.s.Botanists do their own thing!
    Benedictus
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    At least you don't hear it pronounced "Agnes Dee-eye" ... or do you?


    Only by the "De-cay-neye".
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Adam Wood
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    German pronunciation of gymnasium would be gümnazium; we tend to pronounce almost all initio-medial s's as a z. ts would be how we pronounce a z as in evanglizare or a c before e, i, oe or ae such as coelum (tsölum).
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,795
    Protasius, are you in North Germany by any chance? Reading Copeman I got the impression Zanctus was a Dutch aberration and that an 18c Salzburg choir would have sung Szanctus, saving z for intervocalic position only.
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    Richard Mix, You're right. Southern German dialects don't have the voiced s. Most of us who speak such a dialect don't even hear the difference and are completely unaware that in Standard German initial s before vowel is voiced.
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