The LitLatophobia....
  • What have you experienced that has prevented the adoption of ad orientem and the singing of latin at OF Masses....
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I received an anonymous letter, via the pastor, (who is none too fond of Latin, himself,) complaining about "that song in a foreign language" sung before Communion, that made people who were not native to the town "feel excluded."
    (Yes, it was the Agnus Dei, Jubilate Deo, Missa Primitiva, Requiem Mass, what ever...)
    When I programmed the simple chant Sanctus the pastor said that the people didn't know it, and when I said that they couldn't know what we neglected to teach them, and asked, didn't he want them to know it? he said, simply, "no."

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    1. The priest who is responsible for the propriety of the Mass in his parish and honestly cannot do so or permit it because of his own inadequacy in Latin.
    2. Altars lacking room to stand in front.
    3. Vocal parishioners. (I've been floored by the vitriol I've heard almost every time the word "Latin" is spoken in liturgy meetings and classes.) Not a lot. But it doesn't take a lot.
    4. Bishops who lead by example ... in not using either Latin or ad orientam.
    5. Peer pressure. "Older and wiser" priests who caution against this passing fad.
    6. Peer pressure. "Older and wiser" priests who have been banished from parishes because of their attitude against anything post V2 and "[I]t's d***ed well about time you asked me to say Mass as it should be said. Oh. And no women on MY altar." (And the resultant bad taste the experience has left in everybody's mouth.)
    7. Priests who are still praying for the right Spiritual guidance to progress.
  • Sorry, let me begin again...I shoudl have been much clearer....

    What interesting and logical objections have you come across!

    I think that we are all aware of the knee-jerk reactions, but out there there must be come stories of rational discussion that would be enlightening. Understanding logical obections can help us to understand the true problems.

    The first 4 years I spent as a parish musician I had three plans for daily mass music I had to develop and implement...starting at the age of 12.

    1. The music for high mass as the pastor wanted - chords for him before every intonation - accompanied responses and chant
    2. The music for high mass as the associate wanted - unaccompanied responses, plus no organ at all during Lent
    3. The Requiem daily mass as substituted...in version 1 or 2 as required.

    Should the music for Mass be varied based upon what the celebrant requests. I'd say, yes.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    What I've seen preventing the adoption is a lack of demand, mixed with "no one else is doing it". There are deeper ecclesiological reasons, but that's the basics: Priests might want to face the altar, but facing the congregation is, like it or not, now the norm. And a priest who isn't inclined to doing it won't because no one's putting the pressure on him. Same goes with Latin. The #1 complaint about Latin at my last church? "They don't do it at St X!"
  • soli
    Posts: 95
    Some people I have spoken with have bad memories of their "Latin" days in their childhood. I think that can be overcome by good education and fostering understanding of the text, but for some the association is strong and they are against the use of Latin. But I don't find that is a large group. It is just one thing I have heard.
  • I've always thought that the relationship to the older liturgy has a lot in common with how generations of immigrants deal with the new language and culture. Those who immigrate will always be more familiar with their old culture as much as they embrace and identify with the new one. The second generation, feeling somewhat embarassed by their parents' foreign ways, try to disassociate themselves from their parents' cultural heritage and try to become completely homogenized. The third generation begins to scratch their heads and wonder about what has been lost from the old ways, though they sometimes can't even speak their grandparents' language as their parents never taught it. Right now, most priests are in this second generation-born before the deforms...err...reforms but ordained after them. Latin is the shameful, backwards-looking language of the old generation. I think that trying to change the minds that have been this way for 40 years is a losing battle, and retraining and reeducating will not alter what is a sociological phenomenon. God bless all priests and may they enjoy long lives, but eventually, these second-generation priests will no longer be bishops and pastors.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    A brilliant analogy, Ioannes!

    It reminds me of Will Herberg's classic book "Protestant, Catholic, Jew", which mentioned the phenomenon.

    So I suppose we should look for support among the priests born after 1970: i.e., those aged 38 and under, the "JP2" generation.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I'm kind of caught in the middle on that one. I do like Latin and prefer the EF over the OF any day. But, I am a Byzantine Christian, and the custom in the east is liturgy in the vernacular. Consequently, I do what the norm happens to be in the parish where I work.
  • chonak,

    Probably the JP2 generation is where to look by and large, though there are some older priests who are young at heart enough to like the old ways.

    There's actually a member of my choir who is a third generation in terms of immigration and a second generation in terms of liturgy. He is into geneology and the customs and language of his country of origin, but when the subject of Latin and Gregorian chant is mentioned, he can't imagine why anyone would want to go "back." I just shake my head and bite my lip. As I value my life, I don't bring up ad orientem either.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Ioannes, I think Fr. Z said at one point that a lot of people only have one big change in themselves, and a lot of these priests who are old enough to have gone through the reforms just don't ever want to do it again.
  • I think there are actually psychological studies, pace Fr Z, that say that we all have only 2 paradigm shifts in us for a lifetime.