A number of possibly interesting jobs....
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Which ones catch your eye?
  • I find the ones willing to pay for a full-time person always interesting, unless they expect you to also haul out the trash and mop the floors. (meaning, doing things that really do not belong in a Catholic music program in the way that I see it.)
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Sometimes it's a bad thing sometimes not. But if a music job really is part time, and they want someone good, it makes sense to maybe combine the job with other duties in order to be able to offer full time employment (ie. Full time salary with benefits)
  • Um, it seems to me that if the Musicus is there fulfilling a part time music position, that he or she should seldom, if at all, be asked (very very nicely and meekly) to work outside his calling. And, If, indeed, 'they' ask him to do other things to pay more, they should, rather, pay him more to be a full time musician, not a Jack of all Trades, or a Handyman. The money, it's obvious, is there; It's also obvious that these people haven't the foggiest understanding of what a Church Musician is.
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    There is no such thing as a part time church music position if one is also the organist.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    So a parish of 500 families with two weekend masses, a small choir that can sing in two parts with accompaniment on its best days, and a congregation that prefers just a couple of traditional hymns at mass needs a full time musician? There's no way that this can be a less than 40 hour a week job?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,486
    Hmmm. I would rather sweep up or take out the trash than some of the things that I have been made to do in music "ministry".
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I thought that a while ago people here agreed that some jobs really are part time. I see nothing wrong with a parish saying "you could have a teaching job at a college along with this job, or absent that, if you want this job to be full time you can also edit the parish bulletin and maybe work the front desk one day a week and get a full time salary with benefits."

    The money isn't always there. There are city parishes barely making it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    Clarification

    I am aluding to the fact that a good organist will have to learn, practice and play preludes, postludes, interludes, weddings, funerals, all masses, not to mention concerts if specified. Most do not comprehend the time required to do well.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Yes I agree. But even taking into account 10 to 15 hours a week of organ practice, in some places, the work week would not stretch beyond 25 hours.

    In most places funerals and weddings pay extra.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    Paix

    Are you an organist?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Indeed I am.
  • The idea of a small parish barely making it is a fallacy.

    Sorry, but the financial resources are usually so well hidden - between the parishes, the diocese and beyond, that I know of no parish that is truly on the verge of closing its doors. Unless the bishop wants to shut them down, then they are gone. But it's not a matter of bringing in enough money, but rather deciding that the future of that group does not deserve being maintained.

    Part time positions are ones where the priest is not convinced there is any need for a "full-time" person committed to the music for the Mass. Many parish staff positions are filled with people barely competent so why should the person at the organ at Mass be any different?

    Any parish needing money gets it from the diocese....unless the diocese wants to shut them down.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    Thank you Noel. You beat me to it. I was trying to figure out how to say it, but you have already done so. It isn't about money people. Wake up. Don't be naive.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    So the diocese is a rich fairy godmother with an endless supply of hidden money that it doles out to parishes that spend beyond their means, no questions asked?

    Yeah the diocese has a lot of money. They don't just happily hand it out to parishes with 400 families who want a full complement of full time staff.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Noel, you WERE kidding, right?
    francis, incentive towards liturgical improvement takes many forms in addition to fiscal. In the CMAA thread you marveled at being here on the board seven years, pummeling and all. As have many of us. Handing out platitudes and imperatives as if they grow on trees naturally invites recrimination. YMMV.
  • True enough, fair enough. Dioceses are not the fairy god-mother for every parish's wish list. However, one would suggest on likely indeflectible grounds that in a very appreciable majority of cases a given parish or a given diocese has or will find all the money it really wants for what it really and truly wants it for, whether that is a suitable auto-mobile car for father, new kitchen amenities, new carpeting (&*%^&*&#), repaving the parking lot, a new roof, new sporting equipment for the team, just about anything that they decide they really want that, objectively, may or may not actually be needed. So, it is greatly, hideously disingenuous for them most of the time to say to the choirmaster/organist 'we don't have any money, things are really tight right now, etc,, etc.'. Other people, with few exceptions, don't get told that. People in gravely abject povery stricken parish situations get a free pass here. The average parish doesn't get a free pass here: they can get those things that they truly want and will find the money for them.

    If an organ is wanted and the powers that be agree that it would be A Good Thing, well, dear friends, for THIS the parish will not 'find' the money, we have to wait (and wait 'how long, O Lord, how long?) for a donor, a benefactor to pay for it, No, we won't cough up the money we could easily find... not to buy an organ! (An organ, by the way, the cost of which should have been factored from the beginning into the cost of building the church.

    It's all about practical things we want to have with nary a question asked about good stewardship of resources; but liturgy? music? an organ? a well-paid and hightly qualified choirmaster? - for these things the question of good stewardship can be counted on to be raised with the insinuation that this is poor stewardship. I have witnessed this disgracefull charade countless times in churches that went on to vote 25 to 100 or more thousand dollars for someone's pet project or sacred cow. SO: THE MONEY IS THERE! In most situations, all the money that's needed is there for what they want it for. It's there in the coffers, or can easily be raised in short order.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    Bravo, my dear MJO.

    Mr fluent: recriminate away, then; and forgive me for being straight away with points as gently as an arrow... I do deserve the pummeling. I am no better than anyone else. You are indeed right.

    I do not speak well in the tongues of men and angels, so please, dismiss my words altogether. Only listen to my music then. But when you do, will you also find only reason for recrimination there too? For you will hear the same message there in my notes.. again straight and strong as an arrow... only truth, only tears, crying to be heard. Is there nothing to be told? Is there nothing worth hearing?

    We have all failed to carry the Faith forward. We have all failed to uphold that Most Sacred Heart of the Church itself; its most glorious and mysterious liturgy, Agnus Dei, in our very midst... now derided and scorned in the greatest sacreligious fashion of all time, right from the top before the cock has crowed twice (two millennium). What excuse do any of us have? How shall we be forgiven?

    I only have hope in Our Dear Lady. And you still have my prayers.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,849
    2 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not in loftiness of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of Christ. et ego cum venissem ad vos fratres veni non per sublimitatem sermonis aut sapientiae adnuntians vobis testimonium Christi
    2 2 For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ: and him crucified. non enim iudicavi scire me aliquid inter vos nisi Iesum Christum et hunc crucifixum
    2 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. et ego in infirmitate et timore et tremore multo fui apud vos
    2 4 And my speech and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of human wisdom. but in shewing of the Spirit and power: et sermo meus et praedicatio mea non in persuasibilibus sapientiae verbis sed in ostensione Spiritus et virtutis
    2 5 That your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. ut fides vestra non sit in sapientia hominum sed in virtute Dei
    2 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought. sapientiam autem loquimur inter perfectos sapientiam vero non huius saeculi neque principum huius saeculi qui destruuntur
    2 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory: sed loquimur Dei sapientiam in mysterio quae abscondita est quam praedestinavit Deus ante saecula in gloriam nostram
    2 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew. For if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. quam nemo principum huius saeculi cognovit si enim cognovissent numquam Dominum gloriae crucifixissent
    2 9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard: neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. sed sicut scriptum est quod oculus non vidit nec auris audivit nec in cor hominis ascendit quae praeparavit Deus his qui diligunt illum
    2 10 But to us God hath revealed them by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. nobis autem revelavit Deus per Spiritum suum Spiritus enim omnia scrutatur etiam profunda Dei
    2 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God. quis enim scit hominum quae sint hominis nisi spiritus hominis qui in ipso est ita et quae Dei sunt nemo cognovit nisi Spiritus Dei
    2 12 Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us from God. nos autem non spiritum mundi accepimus sed Spiritum qui ex Deo est ut sciamus quae a Deo donata sunt nobis
    2 13 Which things also we speak: not in the learned words of human wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. quae et loquimur non in doctis humanae sapientiae verbis sed in doctrina Spiritus spiritalibus spiritalia conparantes
    2 14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God. For it is foolishness to him: and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined. animalis autem homo non percipit ea quae sunt Spiritus Dei stultitia est enim illi et non potest intellegere quia spiritaliter examinatur
    2 15 But the spiritual man judgeth all things: and he himself is judged of no man. spiritalis autem iudicat omnia et ipse a nemine iudicatur
    2 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. quis enim cognovit sensum Domini qui instruat eum nos autem sensum Christi habemus
  • How many Catholic churches, not diocese, declare bankruptcy each year?

    ADDED: The Catholic church is a business that builds nothing to sell, rather it is a large club that wants to attract members.

    It's more a major football franchise than anything else. The coach is moved around to a team where he is most effective in creating income. The coaches who are less apt to attract members - for example, if they want to say the Latin Mass - are shunted off to "losing teams" which never fail, instead they produce less income.

    Catholic churches rarely open their doors on Sunday to find no one, absolutely no one, coming in the door. Just like the lowest level, poorest franchise football team, people still show up, hopeful for better things in the future - one being eternal life.

    I suppose that's why Catholics put up with miserable priests, bad music, power-hungry KOC members...

    If this were not true, then why do members whose churches are closed by bishops not go quietly?

    And, it's not IF the diocese steps in - Catholic parishes in need of a loan MUST get it from the bishop and MUST then submit every purchase over an amount (at one diocese, everything over $9,999) for approval by the bishop.
  • How many Catholic churches, not diocese, declare bankruptcy each year?


    Because they legally can't without the diocese's permission.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Noel, I think you've got it a little bit right.

    Yes - in the current fiscal year, if the parish suddenly runs out of money - because a mass exodus of people leave in a matter of months, the parish has blown through all of it's savings, whatever - then yes, in the immediate term, the diocese will obviously step in an make sure that salaries are paid and what not. They will keep it afloat.

    That is not something that happens lightly, and the "payment" for the diocese bailing them out like that is that the diocese will basically take over the governance of the parish; there will be serious discussions about drastic cutbacks and the ability to maintain future solvency.

    So even if you got your generous, full-time music director job there paying $65,000 a year, as soon as the parish has to go to the diocese because they ran out of money, guess what: you will not be making that money there anymore - and other staff that is not absolutely essential will probably be cut as well. Furthermore, if the pastor was not prudent in his handling of money, it will reflect very badly on him and he won't be the pastor there much longer.

    So, you're correct in the sense that every parish is "backed" by their diocese. But the implications of them needing to resort to that are HUGE and are to be avoided at all costs by the pastor.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Aren't most dioceses of the US still on the corporation-sole system, in which the diocese owns all parishes? I think that would make bankruptcy impossible for individual parishes. (A few dioceses have restructured to set up separate corporations for the parishes, an approach which reflects church law better.)
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • I think that the separate corporation system can be problematic in that a lawsuit (like a sex abuse claim) can destroy entire parishes forever. Dioceses haven't fared well with these suits either, but they are at least structured to survive them.

    Furthermore, doesn't parish ownership of the facilities also lead to actual schism of parishes from their mother diocese? Fr. So-and-So's parish disagrees with the bishop's statement on Moral Law du Jour X, so they break away and take the property with them. If the parish owns the property, what is to prevent this situation?

    DISCLAIMER: I am neither a canonist nor a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
    EDIT: I inverted the meanings of "corporation-sole" and "separate parish corporation" in the original. I told you I wasn't a lawyer.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Andrew, those are very good observations, and there have been many disputes in various (primarily urban) dioceses where a parish scheduled to be shuttered becomes "occupied" by parishioners via legal maneuvers and actual physical proximity (picketing etc.)
    And your first scenario was spot on, the Diocese of Milwaukee is/was under scrutiny for the See having sequestered $56M formerly in general fund accounts into the cemetaries' line items, presumably as "protection." I don't render actual knowledge of those circumstances. One thing I agree with Noel on is that the processes are arcane and labyrinthian.
    I do know that pastors and (hopefully) their mandated finance councils are compelled to make things work at the parish level. And at times, I've been frankly surprised when I hear of "unfunded mandates" that are leveled upon pastors and parishes by chanceries all over the map with the expectation that the people will pony up for those as well as their own financial concerns.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Some chanceries should fly the jolly roger on the pole in front of the building. Eye patches and grog for all - arrrrgh!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    @Andrew: Using separate entities does make each parish responsible for its own liabilities; on the other hand, it reduces the "deep pockets" temptation that encourages fraudulent or exaggerated claims against church institutions.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I can tell you our missionary diocese doesn't have much money. I like to say (in regards to our diocese and parish) that our bank balance is $0.goodwill.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    PaixGioiaAmor, thanks for elaborating small parish realities.
    In speaking with people, sometimes I have explained it:
    When the scythe is swung, the short ones get haircuts, the tall ones lose their heads.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    I'm still gasping for breath at "10 - 15 hours a week of organ practice." Huh? In what universe does this go on?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    That was my point. EVEN IF you counted that much time, on an average week there are some places where the work week wouldn't be above 25 hours.

    In some smaller parishes, assuming 2 weekend masses, let's say two hours each to account for meeting a cantor beforehand, so that's 4 hours there. 2 hours for choral rehearsal, plus 2 hours prep time with scores, etc (Although in a parish that small, I doubt there's much heavy choral music being sung) Then add 10 hours a week for organ practice just to be charitable ... That adds up to less than 20 hours.

    Want to add in "planning" to select hymns, ok add 2 hours a week (a ridiculously high number) ... you still get 20 hours.

    So in some small parishes, it's not even reasonable to demand that there should be a full time director of music and organist. They would be paid for what exactly?
    Thanked by 1marajoy
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I turn in a number of hours that keeps me officially classified as part time. I have a diocesan pension from my years teaching in a parish school. If I turn in hours that average yearly over a certain amount per week, I will be classified as full time and lose that pension. Consequently, I work the hours necessary and don't worry if it is over the hours I turn in.