interesting essay....
  • Here

    I’d love to read comments from folks here?
  • It is a solid article that summarizes a great deal of material, and the conclusions are exactly right. We need to reject relativism in selecting music. Not all styles are equal. Chant is the standard.

    It is true that we have a large battle to overcome in convincing priests, Bishops, and musicians that the choice of music is not merely a matter of personal preference, that there is a standard, and that standard is consistent throughout tradition. I do think that the chant argument here is winning the day on an intellectual level.

    What the article doesn't seem to deal with--and this is not his main concern here--is that practical problem, which is very nearly the main problem we face today. There is much more stopping progress than intellectual considerations. To have chant at the parish level is not as simple as putting in a new CD or downloading tracks from iTunes. People are intimidated by chant. They don't know how to read it or sing it and most musicians are not inspired to learn how. There is an amazing dearth of singing talent in our parishes, which is a consequence of decades of neglect. Priests figure that this is true and are shy to insist on change. Nor do priests think of themselves as the right people to take on this struggle. Bishops mostly avoid the whole music question simply because it is so contentious.

    I would say then that the major obstacle that faces us today is a pedagogical one. I don't think this can be overcome by manufacturing increasingly easy ways to learn chant (youtubes, online presentations, etc.). The problem is not a lack of opportunities to learn. The problem is that most Catholic musicians are not inspired to upgrade their knowledge. That is the critical thing. And chant cannot make progress without this upgrade.

    We need a paradigm shift, one that is frankly intolerant towards parish musical efforts that fail to incorporate plainsong on grounds of incompetence or unfamiliarity. Musicians and pastors need to sense that second rate hymnody is no longer a suitable foundation for music at Mass. This requires a shift in culture that can only come from working on all fronts for many years, as well as sound leadership at all levels. This is a slow path to reform but the only path that will create lasting change.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,810
    an excellent article. jeffrey sums it all up very well. one thing is clear to me. if the church doesn't get some backbone on the issue of what is the 'proper' music for the mass, and is willing to ENFORCE IT, then we are beating our heads on a rock. the clergy MUST get behind this.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    One of the historical bits of information that I found fascinating (and I probably knew but hadn't really thought about), is that it was priests in the early years of this controversy that were raising complaints.

    Now it seems the priest, and indeed many of the bishops, have given up, acquiesced, capitulated to the admission of truly destructive music to the cultural and spiritual welfare of the people.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    Felipe,

    Where did this article come from? I know Ed Schaefer and would like to quote it, but I don't have any attribution - and I never step on people's academic (or musical) toes, if avoidable.

    The point that David brings up of acquiescence is accurate, if puzzling. I've often heard of priests complaining in the sacristy after the fact about the hyper-pop or cheesy music selections. At the same time, they seem to feel helpless to contradict their committees' or directors' choices. Since the pastor is basically the chief liturgist of his parish, he should feel empowered (sorry about the term) to set the terms. At the same time, I've succumbed in my time to intimidation through whining, so I can understand how it's easier to kvetch than command.
  • Amen, Mary Jane. There are just some folks out there who won't let you alone. They keep insisting that the only pastoral music is chant... Watch for the bowties. They are a dead give away.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,810
    Where can I buy a bowtie? Are there any with neumes on them!?
  • Beau Ties of Vermont has a very nice selection of ties. And you can get them pre-tied if necessary. They have some with musical motifs. They can also turn regular ties in your closet into recycled bow-ties.

    Maybe CMAA can find so many yards of a nice silk print with neumes, etc. - and they can make a run of them!
  • Do we have an investor? ha!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    http://www.beautiesltd.com/PRODUCT.ASPX?pn_deptid=7505 and I'll also endorse the company. I ordered a fantastic black tie from there, and as a result I am now the only person in the choir who knows how to tie one! I am even considering a conversion from the necktie to the bow tie...
  • You will never go back.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    You're right, Jeffrey. I started wearing bow ties last winter, and now many of my former favorite neck ties may need to be sent out to Vermont for "retrofitting".

    I'd be all over a tie with chant manuscript on it! Time to hit the fabric stores.
  • mjballou,

    I believe it’s in the 2003 volume of Antiphon, but I don’t see it listed on that journal’s web site.

    Schaefer appears to use it for an online course he teaches in the history of Catholic church music.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    Thanks for the reference, Felipe.

    My late father wore a bow tie - always Countess Mara. Many men I know and admire (and whose musical taste I respect) wear bow ties.

    I would silly in one.

    And be very careful about your patterns, gentlemen. Excessively exuberant ties can be the male equivalent of Halloween sweaters on school teachers.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Brooks Brothers, baby . . . Brooks Brothers all the way.
  • "Beau Ties of Vermont has a very nice selection of ties. And you can get them pre-tied if necessary."

    Pre-tied? I shall meet you for a duel in the choir school courtyard.

    Yes, the article is from Antiphon. Well-written and thoughtful.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    My recollection is that Robert Snow, the person whose plainchant setting (or adaptation) of the "Our Father" (in English) is most familiar to us, wore a bow tie. He was a professor at my undergraduate alma mater, the University of Texas at Austin.
  • Robert Snow was a good friend and mentor during my graduate school days (90s). What a fabulous man! He gave me all sorts of help and I wasn't even a student of his at UT. We in the hispanic musicology field miss him greatly. I recall he always liked to say that he once was the most performed of all Catholic composers in the English world in the days just after the Council. He composed a few English chants for immediate use, including the Lord's Prayer.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I wasn't a student of his, either, though I had a friend who was. (I was at UT from '88 to '93… you, Michael?)
  • I was doing my master's and PhD work at Florida State ('92-97) and came into contact with Bob Snow through one of his grad students, Grayson Wagstaff. He treated me just like one of his own and was happy to spend time on the phone and in correspondence. I got to meet him in person at an AMS meeting finally only two years before he died.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I know Grayson Wagstaff! Man, it's been a long time… still at Catholic U., no? Are you still in contact with him? (And, by chance do you have any friends from FSU who were doing PhDs in music ed there at the time? As you may know, FSU was and still is one of the premier places in that field… with Cliff Madsen there and all. A lot of us in music ed can trace our 'lineage' to him, even if we didn't study there.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    It seems to me that if you want chant to advance, you are going to have to get more of it into modern notation. I know how some here wax poetic about the nuances of neumes, but most folks don't read them - or have any reason to want to.
  • While I don't necessarily agree with publishing more chant in modern notation (but more power to those who take the initiative), I want to ask: how about waxing poetic about mp3s, which are really nothing more than oral tradition...digitized? Remember how we all learned our first languages... it wasn't by reading. We listened, spoke, and then we learned to read and write. Why ought it not be the same way with the chant? I can't speak for others, but that's how I got into music first as well...banging on the piano, then learning technique, and then musical literacy. Chant notation, when I got to it, was nothing more than a second language.

    I've put together a series of Gregorian chant classes at my parish that makes this oral tradition live. See the page for it here. I haven't placed very many neums in front of my students, yet in a few short weeks they have learned almost all of the responses, Mass XVII and Alma Redemptoris Mater.

    I would say only a minority of Catholics would need to read the neums. Among that minority would be clergy (who employ the tones in the Missal), chant instructors, and all those responsible for the propers.
  • Fact is that anyone who could read modern notation can read neumes. It takes all of 5 minutes to learn the basics. There's nothing in a modern-notation transcription of a chant that cannot be easily seen in neumatic notation. I don't understand the difficulty. For PIPs who don't read modern notation, I don't see any advantage to using modern notation. I'd be curious to know why this is so needed, then. Anyway, once more of this shows up in missals and such, it will become more familiar and I'm guessing folks will like the fact that it is ever so Catholic.
  • Mark, yes, I'm in contact with Grayson. He was my de facto dissertation advisor, actually. He's also contributing to the essay collection I am working on. Still at CUA. I probably do remember some Music Ed grad students, but I would need some prompting for names. 10 years ago now...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    I think in our enthusiasm for chant, we forget just how many were and are glad to get away from both Latin and chant. The neumes are just another barrier since they look odd - sort of like cuneiform or something similar. They just are not familiar. It seems to me that starting where the folks are and working from there is not a bad approach.
  • Again, if "where" folks are is not being able to read modern notation (and so many are there these days), why would starting with modern notation be better. I'll just argue the opposite and leave it at that. Some may find the chant notation beautiful, which it is, and that may draw them to it. They will do the same thing they do with OEW, pick it up by rote anyway. I'm not saying that we should never use modern notation, but I frankly don't see the need. Start with chants people know, like the Lord's Prayer and Tantum ergo.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    CW - My experience is that 80% of our regular choir does not read modern notation competently. Toss in key changes, time signature changes, complex rhythms, accidentals, etc., and they are learning by rote when the accompanist plays their line and the one person in the section who can do so reads it properly for them. And ask them to explain A440 and they're completely lost.

    Chant notation, on the other hand, has proven extremely simple for the schola members to pick up. It's all relative pitch with no need for a keyboard/pitchpipe starter. And a string of puncta with the occasional podatus they pick up quickly. Sure they're not up to sightreading a 50 neume melisma, but they can honestly work through it given the chance.

    And because the notes require less attention, they can focus on the words and the phrasing - something generally lost in modern notation.

    I'm not speaking in favor of retrograding modern music back into chant, but I'm definitely for teaching folks how to read the simple form and gradually teaching them the concept of "now let's talk about the key of E# minor."
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Speaking of the Robert Snow adaptation of the Our Father, nobody sings it as it is notated when it goes "Now and forever" at the end.

    It is written F - G - A - G - F - F, but most people sing A - G - F - G - F - F

    (Incidentally, I prefer the chant Our Father by Dr. Marht --- the one that Jeff Tucker promotes)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    OK, OK, I'll grant that there's a place for modern notation versions -- but it's just to help people get over their non-rational resistance to the easier (square) notation.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    I'm with Aristotle on teaching by ear for most people. Then take them to easy neumes, so they can do more text than they can memorize. However, it's interesting how resistant people are to learning this way. While I know many of us are naturally, or by virtual of our educational system, visual learners, you have to rip the paper out of their hands and silence the whining before you can start singing. If you persist, it is rewarded with better attention and singing.

    I don't like modern notation for chant, either the 8th note version that was popular in the past or the more modern stemless style. It promotes a choppy style or a dead-slow drag in my experience.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    I think the 4-line staff causes greater problems for my singers than the neumes. The pitches may be relative, but they have to be relative to something. And "C" is just not in the place where they think it should be. As some have said, "we're too old to change." So, if I want to do chant, I have to sit down and take the time to convert it to something they recognize. Now is there anything holy or sacred about a 4-line staff? I'm sure someone will think so, but I don't.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    I agree that it's hard to move some people from modern notation. I've had some success to giving them traditional notation of something they already know - say, an Agnus Dei or one of the chant hymns that has wandered into the contemporary repertoire.

    The problem is that they're looking for an exact pitch. If you can persuade them to focus on movement between notes, not thinking "now this is B and this is D," it may get them unstuck. And of course, you can remind them that the only place where change is impossible is in the graveyard. (With a smile, of course.)
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    CW - I'm attaching a subset of slides for a Gregorian Chant class I've given newcomers to our schola to try and get past some of the resistance you're encountering. Given that the average members of the schola have long ago been counting their ages in Ed Sullivan years, these are not kids. But it didn't take long for them to figure things out.

    [Arghh: I tried to attach it but am told that I'm "...not allowed to upload the requested file type: ...ms-powerpoint". Feel free to email me and I'll send it your way.]

    The most important thing is to get them away from a piano or anything else that will give them a starting note. Let them pull it out of thin air. And if they don't understand that concept, ask them where they think Father gets his notes when he's singing! (If, on the other hand, you have a group with perfect pitch I envy and pity you.) And see if they know the correct words to slide #11.

    And in the era of full disclosure, these slides are my expansion to an excellent Chant class put together by a poster on here: Pes! Pes's work should be available somewhere on the site and is absolutely worth checking out.

    I'm priorstf, and I approve of this message.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Found this article from GQ, very interesting: http://men.style.com/gq/fashion/styleguy/accessories/96 "the conservative's nose-ring"!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,974
    I rarely wear any kind of tie more often than once or twice a year. I decided long ago that I really don't want to wear them. Two of the good things about getting older are being able to say what you want and wear what you want. Perhaps those are the only good things? ;-)