Mozart, K618, Ave verum corpus tuning example

mrcopper

For anyone interested in vocal tuning, another hypothesis about music and intonation is here:

http://intonalist.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/mozart-ave-verum-corpus/

William Copper

JulieColl

Mr. C-- love your elegant website! This item caught my eye:

The “eh” syllable has been said to lead to flatness

Speaking as we were of the Tallis piece, Bone pastor, on the other thread, it occurred to me that it is the very first "re" in the phrase "panis vere" in measure 4 where everything starts heading south pitchwise.

That is precisely the point where the sopranos start their downhill slide. Since I'm an alto I'm holding the F and can hear the sopranos creeping down on their A, and it's almost impossible to get back on pitch.

Is it because the spoken "eh" (or "ay") at the end of a word is naturally inflected down? How would you correct that tendency when you're singing?

Now that I'm looking at the score, there is an "eh" at the end of almost every phrase! Is that why it's so hard to stay in tune with this piece?

MaryAnn Carr Wilson

My .02, and I'll give more if asked so as not to derail a good thread:
The eh (as in "bet") vowel is often the most difficult to unify and tune. And in order for it to be in tune, it needs to be unified among singers. Once the vowel is unified, finding proper resonance and matching other vowels can begin.

Incorrect tongue position and letting the resonance fall back are often main culprits.

MaryAnn Carr Wilson

I look forward to hearing your example as soon as I'm out of my son's basketball clinic. :)

mrcopper

Julie, I don't know. It's marvelous music, but perhaps a director might place some responsibility on the altos:"It's ok to sink on the second"eh" sound, but then you need to hear and tune to the basses on the "ve" of verum going forward". Or something like that ...

JulieColl

Thanks for that helpful tidbit, Mary Ann. I think the ending e in Latin is actually a long e, but we try to avoid the "ay" sound. We've learned to sing it somewhere between an "eh" and an "ay" so it could very well be the problem that we're not consistent with our vowel sounds.

Mr.C, good idea---I never thought of listening to the baritone. I usually tune myself to the sopranos, but it seems to me that if a leading voice part like the soprano or tenor starts going flat, everyone else automatically modulates, and it's almost impossible for anyone to stay on pitch even though you can hear it sliding down. It's quite a fascinating phenomenon. Everyone just goes down with the ship. : )

CHGiffen

Given that the Mozart "Ave verum corpus" is accompanied (or are you trying to sing it without the accompaniment? ... not recommended), tuning issues are both ameliorated and complicated by the tuning of the instrument(s).

For an a cappella setting, such as my SMzATBarB "Ave verum corpus," this might be even more fun(?) ... or pain(?). Interesting also because of two instances of exposed major thirds (I resisted the temptation to write an open fifth at those two places). While the work is available at CPDL and somewhere else here on the forum, I enclose the score and two MP3 recordings, one with simulated voices and the other with simulated wind instruments (for clarity), S=oboe, Mz=trumpet, A=English horn, T=French horn, Bar=trombone, B=bass trombone. The work was performed by the Ensemble Octonote in Switzerland last year, but sadly I don't have a recording.

Adam Wood

SMzATBarB

I know what this means, but hearing it in my head as I was reading made me laugh out loud (in my head).

MaryAnn Carr Wilson

Adam, if you heard that recto tono in your head, and then mentioned it on a public forum....

I think you may owe Mr. Maloche some mulah.

CHGiffen

I guess I should have stuck with SSATBB. :)

MaryAnn Carr Wilson

I respect your distinctions. Adam is clearly much less respectful than I.

mrcopper

I'm no Latin scholar, but I believe the Romans would call the -e of Ave a short E and the E of Verum a long E ... justifying, perhaps, slightly different tongue position or at least a different mental treatment by the singer.

As to accompaniment, of course, Wolferl wrote for orchestra, which can tune just as well as singers.

Adam Wood

I'm no Latin scholar, but I believe the Romans would call the -e of Ave a short E and the E of Verum a long E ... justifying, perhaps, slightly different tongue position or at least a different mental treatment by the singer

I think the attribution to classical Roman authority is possibly inaccurate, and probably irrelevant.

HOWEVER - I agree with the conclusion here.

The poetic accent is on the first syllable of both words. I've never sung the Mozart, but when doing the original chant, mrc's observation holds up - at least for me and my choir.

orchestra, which can tune just as well as singers

Better, I imagine, in many cases.

melofluent

Digression alert:
Given that the Mozart "Ave verum corpus" is accompanied (or are you trying to sing it without the accompaniment? ... not recommended),
Chuck,
There is a recording (CD) about two decades ago of the Swingle Singers of all Mozart this and that, that does demonstrate beyond any doubt AVC can be sung a capella, and quite in tune.

Kathy

Given that the Mozart "Ave verum corpus" is accompanied (or are you trying to sing it without the accompaniment? ... not recommended),

Excellent question.

mrcopper

Yes,good question: on my original post, I updated what I said to claim (ducking the tomatoes thrown here) that the organ continuo doubling the lower strings was there solely to comply with union rules in effect in 1778 or so.

May I mildly ask, Adam, are you sane?

in on the first

Or are you thinking of that baseball commentary routine, "who's on first"?

Salieri

In response to the organ - here is the Autograph, with figures http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/7/7d/IMSLP293690-PMLP14118-Mozart_-_Ave_Verum_Corpus_K618_-autograph-.pdf. I don't know what that implies about Mozart's own practice, tho'.

I am fairly certain that some kind of continuo was used. Mozart was known as a brilliant improviser, but I'm not sure if we have any examples of his preferred method of continuo playing, I have never heard of any. (But I'm not a Mozart scholar - not even a Mozart "fan".)

Adam Wood

me: the accent is on the first syllable
mrc: May I mildly ask, Adam, are you sane?

What?

My lack of practical musical skills might allow you to confuzle me with your harmonic witchery, but I know a trochee when I see one.

mrcopper

You know what they say: if it walks like a dactyl, quacks like a dactyl ...
I wasn't disagreeing about the accent.

mrcopper

Third phrase has some interesting choices: http://intonalist.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/mozart-ave-verum-example-3/

mrcopper

And the final phrase: http://intonalist.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/mozart-ave-verum-corpus-tuning-last-phrase/

mrcopper

Time flies ... I've finally gotten back to the Mozart and made complete score with tuning marks and recording with orchestra tuned. Just in case you have a moment among all this busy time, take another look and listen. As with the Byrd, I think one could make a case for some tuning-painting in addition to tone-painting.

Links to score and recording http://intonalist.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/mozart-k618-ave-verum-corpus-final/

William

mrcopper

By comparison, here is pretty good and unheralded live recording:

https://soundcloud.com/ludovico-trianni/mozart-ave-verum-corpus

And a pretty bad commercial recording, illustrating why doubling with the organ is a terrible idea:

https://soundcloud.com/emiclassicsus/mozart-ave-verum-corpus-k

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