Submitting Dubia
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    The Reform of the Reform folks have been pretty lucky at receiving responsa to their liking from the divine worship congregation. It's not something to be taken for granted in the future. What are some dubia that have not been submitted that should be? I for one would like to know about the legality of troping the Alleluia a la Mass of Glory. Does anyone keep track of such questions? It would be unfortunate if such dubia were not submitted because we all presumed someone else has done it.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Redemptionis Sacramentum reminds that the text of the Mass may not be changed. This is why the Agnus Dei cannot be troped. I see no reason why the same logic doesn't extend to the Alleluia.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    You might get a faster answer from the USCCB liturgy secretariat.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    "You might get a faster answer from the USCCB liturgy secretariat." Anything named for a famous race horse even sounds faster!
    Thanked by 1Chris Allen
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    And what about the troping of the Kyrie in many many mass settings?
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    From the Roman Missal (Penitential Act, 3rd option):

    The Priest, or a Deacon or another minister, then says the following or other invocations* with Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy):


    Other sample invocations are given in the appendix, but they are not exclusive of others. The troped Kyrie is legal.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    However, the trope is proclaimed by the priest, not by the choir.
    Thanked by 2BruceL M. Jackson Osborn
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    I was of the understanding that the troped Alleluia in the Mass of Glory had received an okay from the USCCB when it came out years ago. Anyway, music publishers seem to adhere to official responses from the Vatican. Thanks!
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    However, the trope is proclaimed by the priest, not by the choir.


    That depends on what is intended by "or another minister" other than the Priest or Deacon.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    Andrew ... true. I was thinking Priest or Deacon.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    At the principal Mass each Sunday, my boss asked me to extend the Alleluia since the procession to the ambo takes longer, with more servers and incense, etc. I sing the Alleluia, repeat, the appointed verse, Alleluia, and then draw a verse from an appropriate psalm (Ps. 118, Ps. 66, Ps. 25 (in Advent)) and then Alleluia. Is this a forbidden practice? How can I extend the music for the procession to the ambo legally?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I don't know if it's "forbidden." If you want to slavishly adhere to rubrics, you could use organ fanfare type music and organ improvisations to extend the length of the music.

    Please know that I'm not picking on you personally - but we've gotten responses before that pretty much say "use your head." How can you extend it LEGALLY? Well if you are using the appointed verse and then adding more for the sake of time, why would that be wrong?

    There's a fine line between doing liturgy faithfully and adhering to the rubrics as much as possible vs. slavishly adhering to rubrics in a legalistic way that does not make sense.

    There's abuses and there's variations. Extending the Gospel procession with sung poetry after the proper verse? I'd be right there with you in saying that this is totally illegal. Extending it with another psalm verse? I wouldn't worry any about that.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen Andrew Motyka Jeffrey Quick bonniebede
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Well, in addition to the proper versicles for each Sunday, there are approved seasonal versicles as well, and I've certainly seen Alleluias extended by iterative use of them (Alleluia/versicle A/Alleluia/versicle B/Alleluia).
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Rogue63, why not a longer organ introduction?
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    We don't use organ for the Alleluia---a cappella singing. Pastor prefers unaccompanied singing anyway.

    Liam:

    Where can I find the seasonal versicles? From the Graduale Simplex?
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka irishtenor
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    They can be found in the Lectionary. They're pretty well hidden; they're after the proper of seasons but before the proper of saints.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    For reference:

    http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/1998USL-Psalms-Alleluias.htm
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    You can lengthen an Alleluia by using an elongated organ intro before singing it a capella.

    In example:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tnGr0FW5LO8&list=UUiiXoGsf7YtS-a39gFwhazA#t=1133

    ...Just noticed this Sunday's wasn't very long. But it gives you an idea.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    GIRM 62a says the Alleluia verse is taken from the Lectionary or the Graduale. The verse texts in the Graduale are mostly taken from the Psalms, so use those Psalm texts (in English) and then you can pad with subsequent verses of the same psalm.

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Use the Alleluias from the Graduale Simplex/By Flowing Waters: it gives TWO verses for the Alleluia.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Rogue,

    You could use the Latin propers, with the chant melodies, and sing them at a pace suited to the building. That way, there's no question of adding verses (which strikes me as a silly idea, regardless of whether it's legal or not).

    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Hmm "responsa" ...isnt that part of vespers? I think it comes before the intercessia.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,413
    '...the troped kyrie is legal...'
    This is highly questionable if not emphatically wrong. One of the options for the penitential rite includes what are, in fact, troped kyries. But these tropes are themselves prescribed in the rite and are part of it. They are valid only in this penitential rite option. Kyrie, as such, may not licitly be troped. No one of any rank has leave to add or subtract one jot or tittle to or from the sacred ritual text. In fact, no words of any kind that are not a part of the ritual text, other than those of the homily, may licitly be spoken by anyone at any time during the mass.
    Thanked by 3MatthewRoth hilluminar CHGiffen
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    That is not correct in this strictness. The GIRM makes provision for explanations during Mass (I think there is something about a commentator). And there are a few parts of the Missal with the strange rubric "With these or similar words".
    Thanked by 2bonniebede Spriggo
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Actually, the rubric for the third form of the paenitential act is this:
    The Priest, or a Deacon or another minister, then says the following or other invocations with Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy): [there is a footnote: Sample invocations are found in Appendix VI, p. 1464. (emphasis mine)] p. 500

    So other texts may be substituted. Frankly, if a priest were to use this form and base his invocations off of the tropes of Kyrie Orbis factor, I would find it preferable to things like "Jesus, creator of all, we have misused the environment: Lord, have mercy."
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    If one understands "Kyrie as such" to mean untroped then there's no contradiction in
    Kyrie, as such, may not licitly be troped.
    Maybe the objection would be to combining Confiteor with a troped Kyrie?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,309
    MJO, yes, I agree.

    Might I add that I never really feel penitential when the minister uses his own invocations for Form C. There seems to be a difference in quality to statements which say use the relative pronoun versus indicative statements.
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