Latin, the ultimate multicultural language
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    I went to see a friend's first Mass in the Middle of the Night at a parish which was probably 40/40/20 Tagalog, Hispanic, Anglo. The pastor is Portuguese, and there is an Italian confraternity of priests in residence. Plus some African people. My young friend is the very skilled and eager Music Director.

    Our previous cardinal could do the Mass in 9 languages, but I knew in private he was pushing Latin among his seminarians. And of course JPII and XVI experienced multi-culti Masses all the time at the Vatican, and concluded that it ended up being gibberish. As have many bishops, from what I understand.

    These priests were all young enough to be counted JPII priests, so, guess what? The Ordinary of the Mass was mostly in Latin. Not the Gloria and Credo, but I suspect that is coming.

    I haven't heard the reviews, and I suspect that a certain number of people felt, "Well, at least that OTHER group didn't get their way, like always." I don't know--I have no way of knowing---but it sure would be surprising if this parish was better than the one in Acts, Chapter 6. Overall, however, everyone just sang along as they were supposed to.

    Not transcendent musically, but unified spiritually.

    I know another music director at ANOTHER parish who complimented a young priest. "He just does the Latin Mass (when called on.) It's not a thing with him." In other words, it's not a weapon, as it has been in the rapidly expiring Vatican II wars. I responded by saying, "JPII: there's ONE Mass." And the MD said, "Exactly."

    Just a thought.

    Kenneth
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Latin, the ultimate multicultural language

    Just wanted to repeat the title of your thread.
    Thanked by 4Choirparts Ben CHGiffen amindthatsuits
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Bingo. In San Diego, there are some 50 documented spoken languages. Some parishes slosh it out between three languages and choirs in different parts of the loft. Craziness. In these cases, Latin unifies. Since it is no ones main spoken language, it is the best candidate for everyone's liturgical language.
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  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I am currently trying to encourage our Parish to move toward Latin for bilingual liturgies. Currently, we make a mess of English/Spanish with a hint of Latin. I would like, this year, to start with the Sanctus, and maybe even the Mysterium considering we already use the Latin Agnus Dei. Though, I may try for the Gradual instead of the Mysterium. Last year, I incorporated more Spanish than I had the year before and, surprise! the entire English community was in uproar. This would be the same English community that is currently in uproar over my hymn choices and use of Latin. So....English or nothing?! Woof.
    Then, there's also the question of the different cultures coming together. Try deleting "Bendito" from the Holy Thursday liturgy....ugh.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Are you intending to follow the model provided in Musicam Sacram 28-31: treating the Mass ordinary as the foundation?
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I'm so relieved when they sing in Latin here instead of Italian. Though I s'pose I could learn...
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    While I am certain that the intent of the Council Fathers was to bring the church closer to the people, one of the real consequences of the vernacular is that we are now segregated by language.

    On great days like Christmas Eve, no one community is ever satisfied with having understood the entire mass. We are most Catholic when we are all together and the solution to the problem is the increased use of Latin.
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  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    ...one of the real consequences of the vernacular is that we are now segregated by language.


    Yup. It makes sense that the ordinary and the parts of the mass which do not change are in Latin. As a pilgrim to WYD Madrid, It was frustrating knowing what parts of the mass we were up to, but being unable to participate in any way. I ended up reciting these parts myself in either English or Latin, but I really felt excluded from the liturgy in many ways. Ironically, the only place where I heard any Latin prayers being used was in England when I visited Westminster Cathedral!

    I am sure that there were many other pilgrims who would have liked to pray the mass together, but were unable due to a lack of Spanish.

    Why has the universal church ignored and continues to ignore Jubilate Deo, which was intended to be the basic repertoire of Gregorian Chant that every Catholic should know?
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  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738


    Why has the universal church ignored and continues to ignore Jubilate Deo, which was intended to be the basic repertoire of Gregorian Chant that every Catholic should know?


    The $64,000 question.
    Many do not know that Jubilate Deo exists... I cannot say why.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I know this one!

    Priests!

    I'll take my 64K in twenties, please.
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  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    This has been a fun discussion--I am keeping my participation to discussion lists to a day or week or so, and we all understand why.

    Anyway, I would like to repeat what I said about its not being a weapon, as in the "rapidly expiring VII wars." I had a very nice chat at the wedding of friend's daughter with one of the main priestly presences at NPM, and he listened intently when I pointed out that VII had never been declared infallible, it served its purposes, and it is not being absorbed into the general magisterium the way that all the other councils have been. As Francis's election has pointed out, we have moved on. So it is best to present it as the Popes' teaching on their being One Mass, the General Instruction on the Roman Missal and its request that everyone know the standard Ordinary in Latin, etc, etc, not as any kind of resolution to fights of the fading generation, which happens to be mine. It is my delight to be surrounded by young people and they so totally do NOT care about what happened in 1971. I stopped caring a long time ago.

    I used to go to a very suburban parish in NC when my father was alive and living down there. It would have to be accounted comfortably but non-confrontationally liberal. Following a hurricane, they had a huge influx of Mexicans. Oh, did the elderly people grumble. The wonderful MD, in that job for nearly three decades, much of it as a volunteer and musically self-trained, with a beautiful voice, and indisputably liberal, simply used the basic Latin settings for Advent and Lent as a way to focus everyone and keep them focused on the penitential nature. It worked. In fact, being aware that this parish was something of a CMAA nightmare, I had a little trouble understanding the cries of anguish about the music. I thought for volunteer and pretty normal, this was a very fine Mass experience. Not that I didn't love my polyphonic Masses in my home parish.

    Then last summer I went to Mass in some dioceses in the Midwest. Dear heavens. I thought they kept that stuff in Coastal California.

    But anyway, not as a weapon, but in submission to the Magisterium and as a natural expression of their being "one Mass," I think it can work.

    Kenneth
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Jubilate Deo?? Whatszat??
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Just to clarify: is that a real question or were you kidding?
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Both. There are no doubt some people who aren't familiar with Pope Paul's document. Just breaking the ice for expansion.
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