Good liturgy vs. Old Time Congregation Favorites
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Recently a cantor at the parish came up to me and said how she misses the "old hymns from the parish". (The previous director picked all the parish favorites for liturgy, be not afraid, eagles wing, you are mine, like a child rests etc...., Haugen and Haas psalms were also used as the psalms as well.... That tells you where the program was when I came on board).

    Since my arrival and learning more about correct liturgy, I've been slowly moving towards "more appropriate liturgy" and only using those hymns mentioned earlier seldolmly (2-3 times a year during liturgy at most).

    Why are people hooked on "the old standards?" (ie: Schutte style music and music from the 70's and 80's). Most of the time when I've heard/played that music at a different parish I was employed at, it was done really bad and it made me miss true organ based hymns.

    My answer to the cantor was that the hymns lists comes down to LITURGY! I'm not going to pick random hymns just so the congregation gets to sing (I don't think she was asking for that, but asking for more "old favorites" to be used). I left my answer being- if it fits into the liturgy I'll consider the idea of using the "old favorites". Her biggest topic is how do we get the congregation to sing more...

    Not to pat myself on the shoulder but I'm proud of sticking to my guns and trying to produce the best music for liturgy possible. I also think it shows that I do care about my job and wanting to do it to the full potential instead of just using "the old favorites so the congregation will sing".

    I know that I'm not going to please everyone with this idea but I believe that I'm doing to best while other church's are still doing blest be The Lord and city of god and using piano and guitar all the time on a regular basis and other old ocp hymns!

    Do anyone else have any other ways to get my point across instead of always just saying "it's based on liturgy!"??

    I'm looking for input from fellow music directors! How have you handled this situation? I'm sure everyone's had to deal with this at some point!

    Thanks everyone!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    If you choose the hymns to correspond to the readings, or to correspond to the antiphons given in the missal, those are specific reasons that most people can understand.
    (Disclosure: I'm a cantor, not a music director.)
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    One piece of stylistic input (and, yes, there is substance to style): One hopes you omit the exclamations in dealing with your folks. Emphasis of that sort in conversation tends only to persuade the already-convinced, and make those who are not check their mental wallets. (Pastoral ministry does not work well when one employs the debate style of Classical rhetoric. Trust me on that one. People may lament that the Classical style has been giving ground to Rogerian dialogue, but it's not all a nefarious plot against the Truth.)
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Someone should put together a CD. It could be called "Catholic Favourites of the 70's, 80's and 90's." It should be well done and pleasant to listen to with good guitar strumming and piano playing, with a flute or violin descant. Perhaps GIA could put one out for charity, or to make some extra money. They do this kind of thing anyway for their sample CD's. Then all the PIP's who LOVE this music can buy one and listen to it and sing with it at home and in the car ALL the time and they wouldn't have to ask for it in church. Problem solved.
    Thanked by 7bkenney27 irishtenor Jenny francis Jani Cailín Ceol Naofa veromary
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    GIA has a whole line of that CD.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    What's this "You are Neat" song? I love neat music!

    Catholic Classics Vol. 1

    CONTENTS: How Great Art Thou • Blest are They • Hail Mary: Gentle Woman • Eat This Bread • You Are Neat • Make Me A Channel Of Your Peace • On Eagles Wings • Sing With All The Saints In Glory • We Remember • I Am The Bread Of Life
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka Jani
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    That's a song for training the Altar and Rosary Saturday Morning Cleaning Guild. We remember that God is Neat, and try to be neat by participating in God's own Neatness. It's sort of the way St. Thomas Aquinas deals with human participation in faith (God's own knowledge) and charity (God's own love), but in this case it's about sacristy laundry and candle wax on the floors again and the altar servers who just throw their uniforms on the floor of the closet instead of hanging them on the hangers numbered according to size.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The song imagines Our Lord addressing His assiduous friend who put high importance on household duty:

    "Martha, I know... you are neat,
    keeping linens pure and white
    You press out every fold
    make the creases look right and be lasting."
    Thanked by 4Liam Adam Wood noel jones, aago Kathy
  • Ben_WhitworthBen_Whitworth
    Posts: 90
    The Complete Celebration Hymnal has a reference in the index to "My Gold, how wonderful thou art". To be sung in front of the sacristy safe, presumably.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    GIA has a whole line of that CD.


    Oh, I'm getting me some and giving them away as Christmas gifts to some of my favourite people. I wonder if you get a discount for multiple copies! But only discs 1,2 and three, the others have traditional Latin hymns.
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Make better hymns the "Old Favourites" of the Parish and you can keep most people happy. If you can do this with a few general eucharistic/communion hymns, you'll be set.
    Thanked by 1Cailín Ceol Naofa
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    I think "you are neat" was the side b from the triple platinum single, "I am special."
    Thanked by 6Adam Wood bkenney27 irishtenor CHGiffen Ben francis
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    What's this "You are Neat" song?

    Isn't that the subtitle to 90% of their songs?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen noel jones, aago
  • ChoirpartsChoirparts
    Posts: 147
    Christmas is about inclusion rather than exclusion. It doesn’t hurt to include a hymn favorite of the congregation. I fear an exclusion attitude might have prevented Silent Night from ever being played in Austria on Christmas. I hope the same attitude of inclusion is followed by the congregation regarding Latin hymns and Chant.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Inclusion can get a bit rediculous. A few years back I sang Silent night in about 7 languages (English, German, Italian, French, Maltese, Polish and Vietnamese) and it really tried my ability as a singer to remember how to pronounce all these words!

    My policy these days is to program a wide variety of music, and hope for the best. Silent Night is Austrian/German; Infant Holy, Infant Lowly is Polish; What Child is This is English; Child in the Manger is Irish...
  • ChoirpartsChoirparts
    Posts: 147
    Wow... hartleymartin. I can't imagine you singing Maltese & Vietnamese. Do you have a recording of that I can use? Our tradition was German, French, Italian, Polish, Spanish, and English...each sung by a different member of the choir.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    It was a herculean task, and one which I do not look forward to repeating. I am certain that I must have butchered the pronunciation of some of those languages.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I can name that tune in one note:
    I have taught singers "Silent Night" in Hmong! (Secular, public school, even tho' they are our largest SEAsian tribal ethicity in the CenValleyCA.
    I enjoyed being tutored by my students.
  • annunciatamt
    Posts: 4
    This is a tricky issue. The Church documents all speak of encouraging the "full and active participation" of the faithful, both in spoken and sung elements. I too have used the "correct for the liturgy" argument, and I think that is the best one. Inserting songs into the Mass just because some of the congregation likes it makes the Mass a concert. If the congregation likes those songs that much, maybe a concert is an idea...could make it a fundraiser for something! But I digress... If the selections for liturgy are well picked and relate to the readings, etc., and are performed well, the participation of the faithful should come naturally. Easier said than done, though...
  • Cailín Ceol Naofa
    Posts: 38
    Musicman923 -- I think the two helpful keys (there may be others that I have not yet learned "the hard way") are to blend music styles while making good changes SLOOOwly and use good public relations when answering questions/suggestions/complaints.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    If we cater to the likes (or dislikes) of an individual layman in the parish, we make the Mass (or any other liturgical event) private property. The use of Latin is valuable precisely because it isn't anyone's language: it doesn't belong to one person, so it belongs to all. In the same way, when Father "restores" the liturgy according to his own likes and dislikes, instead of doing what the rubrics tell him, and when he insists on facing us, and putting his mini-homilettes all throughout the Mass, he makes the Mass about him, instead of Him.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
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