chant confiteor in English?
  • Has anyone set the Roman Missal text in English to the tune of the confiteor chant?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Paul, happy Advent!
    Regarding sung things, could you drop your classmate a note reminding him that in Jan 2010 you stressed the hierarchy from MS regarding the Pater Noster/Our Father?
    But in relation, in the OF, I actually believe the Confession would be diminished and weakened by any erzatz or discovered vernacular plainsong setting.
    I think that sums it up.

    That said, if you really want one, I'll give it try.

    C
  • If you want to sing the penitential rite, use the versacle:

    V: Have mercy on us, O Lord.
    R: For we have sinned against you.
    V: Show us, O Lord, your mercy.
    R: And grant us your salvation.

    Presider: May Almighty God have mercy on us...
    All: Amen.

    You don't always have to use the confiteor.
  • There is actually a chant tone for the confiteor provided in the approved Roman Missal. As far as I know, no-one ever actually uses it.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • I believe that the confession would be expanded and strengthened were it sung... as for which the new improved and approved Roman missal makes provision, and, implicitly, expects to be normative.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • I am under the impression that chanting confessions is not a Roman rite liturgical tradition. Hence that "the confiteor chant" is not a thing. But am I just wrong?

    Edited: yep, just wrong.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    There is actually a chant tone for the confiteor provided in the approved Roman Missal.

    I am curious about this statement. I do not own a copy of the Latin Missale Romanum editio tertia. Is the tone referred to in that Latin edition, or is it in the Australian edition of the Roman Missal 3?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I agree with fr k. I've looked many times in my copy of the missap, and have never found it.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,001
    That PDF is of the EF Confiteor. Not the OF Confiteor, let alone in English.
    Thanked by 2ronkrisman tomjaw
  • I think Ryan was just showing Andrew that the sung Confiteor is a Roman Rite tradition at Solemn High and Pontifical Masses.

    I've never seen the current one in English set to chant, though. I'd be happy to do it, but couldn't get to it until tonight.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I could also do it in a couple days, I'm sure someone else will get to it before me. It wouldn't be particularly difficult to do.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I was just asking if that was the confiteor tune he was thinking of.

    Clearly it's not in English.

    Is there a Latin setting of the OF confiteor that a MR3 version could be based on?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,181
    I'm not sure that the EF setting above (offered on a card by Angelus) is really anything official. It might just be someone's recommended application of a common tone to the text.

    I haven't found it in the 1961 Graduale, nor an OF counterpart in the 1974 Graduale.
  • It's in the Common Tones of the Mass section in the '61 Liber, p. 110 (PDF p. 222).
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    Bravo, ClemensRomanus! Yes, I find the (most solemn) Tone for the "Confiteor" for Pontifical Masses on page 111 of the 1959 edition of the Liber Usualis. Since it comes immediately after Before the "Agnus Dei," which is a setting of Per omnia saecula saeculorum. R/. Amen. V/. Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum. R/. Et cum spiritu tuo, I would understand that it is referring to the Confiteor prayed before the reception of holy communion. There is no indication that this musical setting would also be used for the first praying of the Confiteor (during the prayers at the foot of the altar).
  • Hmmm...That's an intriguing thought, Father. I wonder if it would be appropriate, then, to use the Confiteor tone for the prayer during the Penitential Act.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Interesting...I always love learning about these little ceremonial details in the EF.

    btw, have you celebrated the EF before, Fr. K?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    CR and Ben, I claim no expertise re the EF. The Liber Usualis seems to be saying that a pontifical Mass is the only form for which a chanted Confiteor is prescribed. I remember being the organist at a pontifical Mass in Denver some time during the 1964-65 academic year, but I don't remember any particulars about that second Confiteor (or even if there was a Confiteor before communion). So does the condition of "pontifical Mass" still apply today? I can't say for sure, but I would think so.

    Ben, I concelebrated Mass in Latin in a convent in Nancy, France, in July 1973, six weeks or so after my presbyteral ordination. The priest I was traveling with knew no French, so we could not use the French sacramentary in the chapel. The only other missal the sisters had was a copy of the 1962 Latin MR. We used that but followed the revised Ordo Missae. (I have celebrated Masses in Latin using the 1970 MR several times during the past 40 years, but no EF's.)
  • I recall a sung Confiteor at a presbyteral Solemn High Mass last year at an FSSP chap, but I'm not a regular EF attendee, so I can't say if it's standard or not.
  • I've set the new English text to this chant from the Liber, but for some reason, my computer keeps freezing when I try to upload the PDF. I'll keep trying
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    Could the "I confess..." be chanted during the Penitential Act at an English-language Mass? I see no reason to rule it out as a possibility. But the nature of the text, as Melo mentioned, also needs to be considered, in my opinion.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong (as I wrote earlier, I do not have a copy of the Latin Missale Romanum editio tertia), but I do not think that such edition of the MR includes a musical chant for the Domine, non sum dignus before commuion, and yet ICEL provided such a chant in the 2010 Roman Missal. Following that example, one could argue for a chanted "I confess..."

    As to the question of different editions of the 1962 MR containing or not containing the text of the second Confiteor in place before communion, I don't know. My edition has no such text. And rubric no. 503 of the Rubricae generales Missalis romani (in the front part of the Missal) seems to indicate that such a preparation for Holy Communion, used formerly by the PIPs at that point in the Mass, is no longer the rule: Quoties sancta Communio infra Missam distribuitur, celebrans, sumpto sacratissimo Sanguine, omissis confessione et absolutione, dictis tamen Ecce Agnus Dei et ter Domine, non sum dignus, immediate ad distributionem sanctae Eucharistiae procedit. (underline added)
  • The editio typica tertia of the Missale Romanum does have musical chant for the Orate fratres and Ecce Agnus Dei (in the Appendix, pp. 1242 and 1244), but none for the Confiteor.

    Singing the Mass (2011) by Solesmes has a chant Confiteor in Latin on p. 269. It says about the Latin: "There is no chant setting of the Confiteor in the Missale Romanum, Editio Typica Tertia, but the practise has arisen in some places of setting it to the traditional tone found in the Liber Usualis, amended accordingly. Therefore, notwithstanding that the more common practise is to say the Confiteor, the sung setting has been included om page 269."

    An English setting is missing however. It just says: "There is no chant setting of the Confiteor in the Roman Missal, Third Typical Edition."
    Thanked by 2ronkrisman Ben
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    .
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    matthewj, your melody could be taught to the PIPs by rote, and so only the person who teaches it to them would need to purchase a copy. Then again, even that teacher could learn your melody by rote from another teacher, such as at a Chant Intensive. Royalties for chants are rather minimal, unless you're ICEL.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    .
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    But it is SO worth it.

    You are probably right about that. However, you are no longer referring to royalties but, rather, an estate sale at Sotheby's.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • I first saw--to my surprise--the chant for the Confiteor in a travel-size copy of the Missale Romanum published in a 1930s edition a number of years ago. In addition to pontifical Masses EF, it is also used at Compline when taken chorally.

    Being a "by the book" kind of guy, I would suggest that chanting or otherwise singing the Confiteor is inappropriate for two reasons: There is no precedent for this in non-pontifical forms of Mass (at least since 1570). (Given the state of things rubrical since 1970, this is an important hermeneutic, I think.) Secondly, there is neither a mandate nor assigned option in the GIRM or the Ordinary of the Mass to do so; this seems especially true in light of the newly-assigned biddings in RM-3/ICEL, namely the biddings at Orate, Fratres and Ecce, Agnus Dei. (I was, incidentally, delighted to see these new additions! Does anybody know where this initiative came from, or why Rome authorized it?)
  • I have seen, and possess (somewhere) chant for the confiteor in the English of our new translation. It is just a matter of time until it becomes regularly sung by St Basil's Schola Cantorum at masses of St Basil's School of Gregorian Chant.
    As soon as I can locate it I will try to put it up here. There is really no part imaginable of the mass that should not be sung. No part, that is, except the homily and maybe the canon. Everything (EVERYTHING!) else that you can imagine should be sungen and hath its own proper tone. (Yes: every last thing! If the priest doesn't chant the Pax, or the deacon doesn't chant the 'let us share...', everyone should GASP.) Ditto the English version of Dominum non sum dignus, and every last dialogue, prayer... the totallity except, again for the homily and optionally the canon.

    In fact, we should do like the Orthodox, and the Eastern Rites, and follow the advice of Isidore of Seville... simply don't ordain a man who can't sing!
  • At our 10:00 AM Missa Cantata (OF), we chant the Confiteor (in English) recto tono. It works very well.
  • @matthewj, call your office.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    Resurrecting this old thread because I set the Confiteor in English to an adapted version of the Latin chant's melody. I'm surprised ICEL didn't do that. Please evaluate. PDF and GABC/txt files attached.

    Over the next year I want to persuade my pastor that Mass would be greatly enhanced by chanting more of the Mass ordinary, including the Creed. No, my community is not ready to chant the Confiteor, the Pater Noster, nor the Credo in Latin. But, for gosh sakes, I hope we can start singing them instead of just reciting them every Sunday.

    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • I have never understood saying the Our Father when everything else is sung. It seems to happen in many places. Likewise with the creed, though I suppose mainstream folks really aren't accustomed to that unfortunately.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,730
    @chonak
    I haven't found it in the 1961 Graduale,

    It is in the 1924 Graduale Romanum pg 120* 'VIII. Tonus 'Confiteor' pro Missis Pontificalibus.'
    I presume it is in the Pontifical...
  • Interestingly, although it's not in the 1961 Graduale, it is in my 1957 Graduale, right before the 8 tones of the Gloria Patri. The 1961 Graduale has a blank page there so that they can keep the following page numbers the same. There are only a couple of differences between the 57 and 61 Graduales, otherwise they are completely identical. One is the removal of the Exsurge from Candlemas on page 429. They just print the Lumen ad Revelation Gentium multiple times to fill in the space.

    My 1924 Graduale also has it on page 120*, just like tomjaw mentioned above.

    It is on page 106* (with the same title mentioned by tomjaw) in my 1923 Graduale
    (printed by Ratisbon, not Solesmes)

    However, there is no tone of the Confiteor to be found anywhere in my Graduale from the 1860s.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • This is the current tone of the Confiteor (thanks to Alberto Turco), which can be adapted to English quite easily.
  • davido
    Posts: 895
    Easily adapted to English, but not nearly as much fun as the one they sing at the old mass before communion, with its drop of a 5th
  • Two different Confiteors. Two different texts, two different tunes, two different Masses.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • There is only one mass, merely different forms.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,730
    There is only one mass, merely different forms.

    I would not describe the Eastern rite Liturgy as a form of the Roman Rite, but it is the Mass. The Dominican Mass is a form of the Roman Rite, but is also described as its own Rite. So while we have one Mass they can be VERY different.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Page 186 of the 2014 CMAA Colloquium music book [pdf] contains a Confiteor set to the tone posted by @smvanroode above. A screenshot is provided below.

    It was chanted during the Sunday Mass in question (July 6, 2014, 14th Sunday in Ordinary Time), but I cannot find a recording of it.
    674 x 1010 - 389K
    Thanked by 2MarkB ServiamScores
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,039
    Why was there a change in the tone to the one sourced from Alberto Turco? I did note that if everything in the introductory rites is being chanted using the revised Roman Missal's tones, the new/current Confiteor tone fits much better with the overall flow and modality of the other chants in the introductory rites.

    Did some Church authority make that determination?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,181
    Why was there a change in the tone to the one sourced from Alberto Turco?


    I wouldn't consider Turco's setting to be a change in the tone: it's not replacing a previous musical setting for the Confiteor before the Kyrie.

    Regarding the sung Confiteor before Communion in Pontifical Masses, here's one more data point. I've found a notated Confiteor in the 1908 Graduale:
    551 x 907 - 126K
  • the new/current Confiteor tone fits much better with the overall flow and modality of the other chants in the introductory rites

    Therein lies the practical/musical answer.

    The repeated placement on the lips of the congregation of what is essentially the solemn oration tone, would continuously teach congregants who later may be called to use the same tone at the altar as priests.
    Thanked by 3MarkB CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,777
    Chonak makes an appealing suggestion. Here it is with the 2010 English:
    name: Confiteor;
    user-notes: ;
    commentary: ;
    annotation: ;
    centering-scheme: english;
    %fontsize: 12;
    %spacing: vichi;
    %font: OFLSortsMillGoudy;
    %width: 5.6;
    %height: 11;
    %%
    (c4)
    I(j) confess(jr) to() almighty() God(j.)
    and(jr) to() you,() my() brothers() and()(z) sis(j)ters,(h.)
    that(jr) I() have() greatly() sinned(j.)
    in(jr) my() thoughts() and() in() my(j) words,(h.z)
    in(jr) what() I() have() done,(j.)
    and(jr) in() what() I() have() failed(ji) to(j) do;(j.;z)
    through(j) my(j) fault,(h.,) through(j) my(j) fault,(h.,)
    through(j) my(ixi) most(h) griev(ixi)ous(f) fault;(f.:z)
    therefore(jr) I() ask() blessed() Mary() ever()-Vir(j)gin,(h.)
    all(jr) the() Angels() and() Saints,(h.)
    and(jr) you,() my() brothers() and() sis(ij)ters,(j.;Z)
    to(jr) pray() for() me() to() the() Lord(ixih) our(ixi) God.(f::)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen