Help me with a response...
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Nelson Mandela has been very much on my mind today as the many tributes and stories of him are all over the news in light of his passing yesterday. I was wondering if you might consider singing Siyahumba, that beautiful spiritual that was introduced to us by ... when he was the choir director, at mass on Sunday. I think it would be a moving tribute to the late, great man.


    This woman, a very capable alto, was in my choir but didn't like the direction in which we were moving (more in line with church teaching and the GIRM). Her talent is missed. We haven't sung Siyahumba for close to a decade. How does one gently explain that Mass isn't for "tributes" but rather for the celebration of the Eucharist and the praising of God in the Trinity? I always feel so inadequate when trying to use language to defend my faith. (And then there is the point of fact that he certainly had his personal faults although a great man in many ways.)

  • Offer to have a requiem put on, which would be appropriate.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Perhaps my best option is to ignore the request ( my dear husband's suggestion).
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Technically the recessional is outside of the Mass so you could do it after an appropriate recessional hymn in the OF of course.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,308
    My opinion: just ignore it. As you said, the celebration of Mass on the Second Sunday in Advent has absolutely nothing to do with Nelson Mandela.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    How does one gently explain that Mass isn't for "tributes" but rather for the celebration of the Eucharist and the praising of God in the Trinity?


    Like that.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    "Siyahamba" was a fun and simple South African song that was popular in U.S. churches in the 1990s. The lyrics were:

    We are walking in the light of God.
    (repeated)

    It was a protest song or a marching song, and groups in England, Europe, or America sang it when they wanted to make a political statement about their solidarity with the anti-apartheid cause. It's had its day. I'm not sure why a Catholic choir director would present it in church, since it's not a prayer or a word from the Bible, and it's not related to the Mass. I'm scratching my head at that.

    But let's pray for Nelson Mandela, that God will reward him for his good deeds and pardon any sins he committed. He wasn't a Catholic, but we can pray for his eternal repose all the same.
  • This woman, a very capable alto, was in my choir but didn't like the direction in which we were moving (more in line with church teaching and the GIRM). Her talent is missed

    I would not ignore the request. If the woman is a former choir member and her voice is missed then you don't want to totally alienate her (although she's really alienated herself with her thinking). I would answer her, tell her gently that we are in the season of Advent and that, while you appreciate her feelings towards Mr. Mandela, explain that this particular song would not be appropriate now (don't go into the rest of the year at this point). Invite her to the next choir rehearsal and tell her that you could start off the rehearsal with a prayer and the singing of Siyahamba (or a recording if your choir doesn't know it), in respect for Mr. Mandela's good deeds. Perhaps giving her this little bit of consideration might bring her back or, at the very least, give her some food for thought.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    certainly had his personal faults

    Understatement of the Year Award! :)

    I guess my feeling is that while it's always good to remember anything positive, sometimes the past needs to be remembered as a whole. I wonder if your alto knows the extent of what that man did, and how it all seems to have been whitewashed as he simply transitioned to a less violent figure. I haven't seen any evidence that he dissociated himself from that which he wrought.
    Thanked by 2canadash ZacPB189
  • Mandela did great things for human rights. He also did horrid things for human rights.

    Serving as the Republic of South Africa’s president from 1994-1999, Mandela not only signed the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act of 1996, he was also one of the most ardent supporters of what the openly pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute calls “one of the most liberal abortion laws in the world.”

    I might shoot an email and get (deflect with) the pastors response. He might have a problem with honoring proabortion politicians.

    To be fair, I don't think many people know about Mandela's proabortion legacy. At least I didn't.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw canadash
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    I did know about it, as well as his behavior when he left his first wife.

    I think a good response is that you are helping keep the Church out of politics and are focusing on the liturgy - or focusing on the heavenly, not the secular. That would be my approach.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw canadash chonak
  • Agreed with Charles.
    Though I would still tell the pastor, if not ask him, and let him know how you handled it.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    And, given the readings and propers of the Second Sunday of Advent, I'd think any of the music sung could be offered privately for Mr. Mandela's repose, if one were so inclined (e.g. Populus Sion, Ex Sion Species Decoris, Laetatus Sum, Deus Tu Convertens, Jerusalem Surge?).
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Just listened to the requested hymn, and it really sounds like they're singing "See ya, humbug." Sure hope that's not what's being said up at the pearly gates, although I'll bet Mr. Mandela had a lot more principles than your usual, run-of-the-mill, pro-abortion American Catholic pol.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    JulieColl, now you are making me feel guilty for watching "Blazing Saddles" on cable today. (Purple Bold)

    I think I would have to have some ties with South Africa to really understand details of Mandela's political career. May he rest in peace, but I have no connection with him or his country. I may never understand his contributions to any great degree.

    Canadash, tell that alto to sing it in the church yard while dressed in native garb. Hope it's cold where you are. ROFL.
  • I think that Hartley has it right. There's nothing wrong with saying exactly what you think in this case: Mass is not for tributes, but is about celebrating the Eucharist and the Holy Trinity. The idea of having a Requiem performance in his honor would be quite fitting and I would think very well received. You could even get more than one parish choir together (from other parishes) and do the performance. You then have a great tribute event that is also a great community building opportunity.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Given that after having supported terrorism for years Mandela signed into law some of the world's most pernicious pro-abort policies, any Catholics who compared him with Jesus Christ (and I have seen this comparison made by at least one British newspaper in all seriousness) would deserve to have called into question, not their sincerity, but their basic intelligence.

    I see nothing wrong with a private Requiem Mass for Mandela. It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for him. I do not judge the final state of his soul. For all we know to the contrary, even Eric Gill and Fr. Maciel might have been given the grace of ultimate repentance. But if we pray for Mandela's soul, surely it should not be with any immediate prospect of success.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Thank you for your responses. I did send an email. It was from a liturgical perspective and noted points about tributes, what the Mass is about (so sad that a woman who attended Mass all her life doesn't know this already) and the importance of prayer for the soul of one who is deceased. She did not respond (a relief) and your help is greatly appreciated again.
  • Thank you, canadash. It sounds as if your method will bring results if any method can.

    Incidentally, to anyone who might have thought that I was exaggerating in my earlier remark, I have found the British newspaper article by one Peter Oborne which committed the emetic blasphemy of likening Nelson Mandela to Our Divine Lord. This is it:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100249502/few-human-beings-can-be-compared-to-jesus-christ-nelson-mandela-was-one/

    If memory serves me (and on memory I must rely here, since Google has disobligingly removed the relevant archives) it was this same British newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, in which 16 years ago the adulterous ersatz-Catholic Paul Johnson likened the newly dead Princess Diana to "the Blessed Virgin, who, told of her destiny, announced with proud modesty, 'I am the hand-maiden [sic] of the Lord'."

    Thus far, to my knowledge, even Messrs Oborne and Johnson have not yet demanded that Teddy Kennedy be raised to the altar or that Rembert Weakland, in the interests of "diversity", be canonized and proclaimed a Doctor of the Church while he is still alive; but I have probably spoken too soon.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    I'm not a stickler for de mortuis nil nisi bonum, but is it fair to say we've covered the ground here adequately?
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I'm not a stickler for de mortuis nil nisi bonum, but is it fair to say we've covered the ground here adequately?


    I agree even though I regard de mortuis as superstitious nonsense. Rather, my objection is that it is off-topic. The response should be to thank her for her input, but that an occasional and venue outside of liturgy would be more appropriate. Mass in most places is already inappropriately "Everything and the kitchen sink" as it is.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Chonak, Canadash,

    Here's another idea. The liturgical life of the Church isn't limited to the celebration of Mass. Perhaps there is some time appropriate to sing that music -- such as, perhaps, a dinner -- and some better way to pray for the repose of the soul of Mr. Mandela.

    Indeed, de mortuis applies, so perhaps this would be a good opportunity for a sermon on any of the following:

    1) why we pray for the dead
    2) why those inside the Church have a better opportunity to go to heaven than those outside.
    3) charity
    4) concision in Latin expression (since there's no verb!) and thus its fittingness for the liturgy.
    5) the difference between a "good person" and a "saint"
    6) Mass intentions and Mass stipends
    7) indulgences
    8) the proper role of music in the liturgy
    9) THE NATURE OF THE LITURGY
    10) judge not, lest ye be judged, and what this really means
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I have no dog in the Mandela hunt.
    Were I inclined to act purposefully from his (and others') life examples, I'd extend my prayers for all who are imprisoned, criminals included. Christ demands this from each of us, even if the face of the criminal soul you're praying for belongs to Charles Manson.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Well, I did receive a response. I was told that I speak to her like she is a "wayward child in need of instruction in the ways of the Catholic faith," that my words are "condescending" and "narrow minded" and that she is not on a "narrow minded" trajectory like I am. Yesterday the visiting priest assured us that the New Evangelization was going to land us in some less than comfortable positions. I just don't know why she doesn't attend another church. My husband went to a neighbouring parish and there they sang "Ho ho ho hosanna...Ha ha Halleluia..."...something for everyone.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    She doesn't go to another church, because it is not about worship. It's about her getting her way.
  • Pro tip: You don't actually have to respond to her.
  • I don't know about just not responding. To me, nothing helps people accuse you of being callous, arrogant, etc. etc. than just not even deeming them worthy of a response.

    I would offer in ernest to meet with her, assuring her that I will listen and have respect for her position - but also warning her that we may end up having to agree to disagree.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Also, Canadaash, not to imply that you did anything WRONG - but I can see where she may have taken it how she did, since you mentioned that you told her what the mass was about, etc.

    I usually avoid teaching people, sad as that reality is - and simply leave it at "My understanding of the documents is ... based on that, my conscience will only allow me to do what I believe the Church is asking for ..."
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,960
    I have had to explain to some that I don't work for them, I work for the pastor. In your situation, you could make a valid case that commemorating a particular individual is a decision best made by the pastor, since he is the one in charge.

    I still think this is about power, and sounds like a classic power struggle to me.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • I don't mean that you should never respond to people. What I mean is that there are some people (and from what is presented here, I would say this is one of those people) who are not interested in listening, discussing, or learning. There is no mandate to bash your head against a wall.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    There is no mandate to bash your head against a wall.

    Although sometimes this turns out to be preferable to talking to people.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    I had nothing to do with the selection of my diocesan bishop. I do not pay his salary, even though I contribute monetarily to the diocese. That being said, I sure hope that he is working for, that is, ministering to all the Catholic people of this diocese, including me. (And he is.)

    I believe the same is true for parish liturgical musicians. Hired by the pastor or his delegate, sure. With periodic performance evaluations from the pastor or his delegate, yes indeed. But "working for" the pastor, not at all, unless "the Church = the clergy" or "the parish = the pastor" is the operative ecclesiology in that parish.

    IMO anyone who has no regard whatsoever for the parishioners of a parish should not be working there.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    It never hurts to acknowledge receipt of the letter, with some non-committal response like "thanks for letting me know your thoughts." I'll close the thread here; hope nobody minds.
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